DNR Violates Hunter’s Constitutional Rights! The Pinch Point | Ep. 25

This week we tackle a hard-hitting topic of when conservation officers cross the line. A hunter’s constitutional rights are violated!


Foreign [Music] To a very special edition or episode if You will of the pinch point because Today we're not going to be funneling Down all the info like we normally do For you guys we're going to be talking About a couple very specific things that All are kind of related to one another And they relate to what appears to be Some sort of pattern of I don't know what we want to call it Overstepping the boundaries of the law But this time by the law enforcement Officers not The the hunter not us folk we're not Always the bad folk on the other side of This thing so Um before we begin I have to say does that I have to ask a Question Brando do you ever do this like I have this horrible tendency I I don't Know I I like fidgets do you know what Fidgets are do you remember fidget Spinners yes Now my kids just call them fidgets okay It's like a whole class [Music] Like fidgets yeah like that's just like Your industry my my fidget is my knife I just said something about like Clicking my knife open and that just Click Of the blade like I will sit and just

Click my knife like Non-Stop All the time do you have anything that You fidget with I'm not if I'm doing like a specific Thing maybe you enjoy fidgeting is it Like a thing do you remember I had a Fidget Cube no I never I never do to do Those like never my other one is my Release Clicking it's something about the Clicking and something like snapping Securely into place like my release but Now that I shoot a thumb release and I Just clip it on my bow when I get there I don't mess with it but when I was Shooting like an index finger that was Strapped on my wrist dude I was Constantly like click something about Like when that thing just clicks into Place and that's like this this knife Dude I just I love it maybe one of my Ticks is like sticking my tongue out When I'm doing anything like anytime I'm Like like Michael Jordan like yeah like Very much that so where I'm like focused On something like I like my I'll like Definitely be like tongue out like all Right well I don't know like that's not A yeah I feel like I don't know Something about my knife and it always Freaks people out when you're like Sitting there playing with a knife my Wife's always like why are you doing That you're gonna kill yourself I'm like

You know how hard it would be to kill Yourself accidentally with a knife Just about as hard as it would be to Trip and fall and shoot your brother in The head with a crossbow about that hard Man that was is what it would be so Anyways as we move forward with this so Let's start with a little bit of History There's been a couple cases now that We've talked about on the pinch point Where Hunters have been By some regard depends I'm sure on who You ask treated unfairly maybe even Illegally by DNR officers I believe the First one we covered was this fella Um I think you know what we may not have Even covered it here on the podcast I Don't think we're doing the podcast yet This was in December of last year Um there was a guy in West Virginia and North Carolina I forget which state he Lived in but he killed two big bucks in One year travel out of state and killed One and then went home and killed the Other one and The Story Goes that once Word got out that he killed this one out Of state The other locals in the area that had Trail camera pictures of the deer Just assumed that he must have been Trespassing when he shot this deer Because I don't know what apparently They're like this deer never left our

Property like how did they know that Like it's just whatever but they took The pictures to the DNR the DNR ended up Coming to his I can't remember if it was this home or I think they went to his taxidermist Which seems to be kind of a similar Thread and They confiscated both of his Bucks keep in mind they had no evidence They had nothing other than like these Guys saying we got drill game pictures Of this dude on our property and this Dude from out of state killed it he must Have trespassed and killed it illegally You need to go do something about this So They confiscate the guy's deer without a Search warrant without legal or whatever Precedent to take his deer heads from Him No actual evidence like it's nobody saw Him trespassing they didn't have any Sort of tangible evidence proof there Was no trail camera pictures of them Anywhere there was no remains of a deer That had been left behind there was Literally nothing other than like a Trail camera picture and these guys Saying he must have been on our property When he shot the deer how A law enforcement officer who is trained On this stuff can possibly decide that Is good enough for me to travel out of State to confiscate these animals and

And Sight this person is just beyond me like I just I don't understand how that I Can't make the correlation between Getting from here to here and not saying To yourself like there's probably not Enough for me to go on to make this Worthwhile so the guy ended up winning His case or whatever they I think the State dropped the case against him Before it actually went to court if I Believe and now I think I don't know if He's suing them or going after them or What exactly he's doing Um but that was like case number one so This was December right just recently This one we did cover on on the podcast Here we had a Virginia landowner who is Suing a game warden for essentially Stealing his trail camera and looking at His trail camera pictures I'm trying to Use it as evidence against him Um so that one was also in Virginia Although one was West Virginia and one Was Virginia and I'm pretty sure that People from that area if you get them Confused they don't like that Like they're very like I'm either from Virginia or I'm from West Virginia which One would you rather live in Brando Probably Virginia you don't want to be In West Virginia why be like I've just Heard stories from West Virginia nothing I can think of in particular but just I

Have a negative connotation oh that's Terrible I know right that's horrible You're terrible biased against West Virginia Virginia is closer to the coast Right obviously Which I like yeah it's farther east Right so but they don't call it East Virginia it's just Virginia it's the Original in Virginia that's pretty Pretty much pretty you can get near like DC right there so it's a nice little Vessel area Yeah I guess why would you want to go There though it's like terrible but Choice between West Virginia or there I'd rather be like by the coast I don't Know enough to make a decision right now But like many things in life I'll just Throw it out there I think I'd rather go To West Virginia for some reason in my Mind it's more beautiful I don't even know if that's true or not Ozarks there is that no that's no that's Completely the wrong part of the country Ozarks is like uh Missouri Missouri okay Yeah and Northern Arkansas I believe as Well but yeah Appalachians that's what I'm thinking of Appalachia Yeah a lot of bad things about Appellation right it feels like It's like Deliverance that's why the West Virginia poor poor people one movie From like 40 years ago just ruined Everything for them

All right so we had this guy in Virginia Uh saying that some overzealous game Warden came onto his property because They thought that he was baiting turkeys I believe it was and they essentially Took his trail camera like again no Warrant no probable cause no real Evidence to do this like they just came Took his took his trail camera checked His cards uh so he's suing them now for Violating his rights saying like look You can't just come on my property and Take my stuff because you feel like it Like that's not a thing that law Enforcement should be able to do right So we talked about this Um on the podcast A podcast listener heard this and Reached out to me and says hey man I Have a crazy ass story to share with you That I want to get my story out because I had a very similar thing happen to me So Um this fella and I we exchanged an Information he called me the other night I was actually on I was on my evening Hike because I once again have decided That I want to do 75 hard for the second Time this year one time wasn't good Enough for me I think today's like day Eight or nine do you recall Brando maybe Today's day nine let's see day nine Today is day nine It's much easier the second time around

Now that I got my like My a plan my system down from the first Time like this this is a walk in the Park but I will say this I was doing workouts outdoors in like February and March and now in July way Different I will say it's a lot easier To consume a gallon of water a day in July than it is in February I don't have To quite force myself especially after Some of these outdoor workouts where I Look like I just got out of the shower So anyways fella called me the other Night when I was on my my evening hike We talked for over an hour about this And he filled me in on all the details Now The thing they always have to remember With every story is there's always three Sides as they say whoever they are I Feel like in this case I'm part of they There's One person's side of the story I.E the Plaintiff let's call them in this case There's the other side of the story Which would be wait no the plaintiff Isn't this guy he's the defendant so He's the definitive is the defendant in The plaintiff the same thing No When you're suing somebody You're the plaintiff so the plaintiff Would be like the state in this case so You've got the states case you've got

His case and then you have what would Potentially be the truth right because I'm sure that the story I'm getting from Him is kind of like his side so it's Going to be biased in his favor if you Were to talk to the CEO or the DNR I'm Sure their side's going to be biased in Their favor and hopefully the truth lies Somewhere in the middle right go ahead Brando but he got plaintiff is the one Who initiates litigation by submitting a Complaint yeah so in this case it would Be the state in this particular case the State of Iowa so as The Story Goes this Guy so he's a non-resident he lives in Michigan He waits five or six years to get that Coveted Iowa tag that we all want right So he finally draws an Iowa tag He gets permission on a private piece of Land in Southwest Iowa to hunt like what A great situation right hell yeah I Gotta I got a Iowa tag and I got some Private ground to hunt on he runs out There during the summer puts up trail Cameras as most people would do and he Puts minerals in front of the trail Cameras which in Iowa is completely Legal to do You can put minerals out put a trail Camera in front of it so far so good he Leaves he goes home he starts getting Pictures of big ass Buck I mean it's Iowa they're everywhere they're

Literally like you just go anywhere and There's just big bucks so he I said he Wasn't even like home yet I don't think It was like the next day it was like Right after he left also boom giant Buck On his trail camera okay so he gets Pictures of this deer All Summer Long At some point in time I believe he said It was like late September something Like that uh a raccoon or something Knocked his camera over which is pretty Standard like I get tons of cameras Knocked over every year so he decides uh Rightfully so like hey it's opening Weekend of the Season I'm gonna run to Iowa from Michigan I think he said it Was like 900 miles one way it was like a Far drive right he's like far Southwest Part of Iowa almost into Nebraska and He's coming from Around Detroit somewhere pretty far Apart I know brand new year your Geography isn't the best so they're Pretty far apart right So he drives out there first night Climbs up in a stand Part of the reason he went out there was He wanted to fix a trail camera right Obviously it's opening weekend of the Season but he's also like man I need to Fix this camera because I'm not planning On coming back for at least a couple Weeks end of October into November Something like that I'm gonna take

Advantage he I think he said he had Already shot a buck early in Ohio maybe Because Ohio opens like in late September so I think he's shot an Ohio Buck and he was like well screw it I'm Gonna run out to Iowa I'm gonna fix this Camera before things start getting good I may as well just hunt while I'm there And then I'll come home no big deal so He drives out there Call it dumb luck call it skill call it Whatever you want he climbs up in a tree That night out walks Giant buck He shoots the deer kills the deer takes Some pictures with the deer Heads his ass back to Michigan so he's Like hell yeah man one and done one sit In Iowa and I killed like a 170 or 180 It's a big deer And he takes it home doesn't think Anything of it goes to the taxidermist Um Drops the the hide and everything off Taxidermist says hey man that's going to Be like a year before I can get to your Deer Because of the load which is which is Pretty standard so he takes the rack Home with him So this is in October of 2021. So he leaves his camera out there this Is where the story all starts to kind of Happen right he leaves this his camera

Out in Iowa At some point in time the landowner who Lived out of state he had permission to Hunt the property the landowner hires a Company to come in and do some sort of Logging or Excavating or something like That so he had been hunting and Essentially like almost like a fence row Between two Fields he wasn't hunting in Like a big block of Timber or anything He was in a one of those spots that big Deer tend to live in because there's not A lot of other deer around right it was Where he was at one of those overlooked Areas where you're like [ __ ] there's a giant Buck living out There and I just didn't even think about It right so the landowner hires somebody To come in and clear a bunch of these Trees out They go out there with equipment Clearing trees out naturally they see His trail camera and I think I don't Know if they're going to cut down the Tree that it's in or whatever the story Is but they take his camera they give it To what he's calling the land manager Which is the guy that must take care of The property maybe it's the farmer maybe He lives on the property something like That he's not the owner of the property But they take the camera they give it to This guy I don't understand the Mechanics of what happens next in in

This guy we're going to call him stash He asked me call him stash it's a good It's a good code name there's a reason He doesn't want all this out there Publicly yet but anyways Um Somehow the camera gets from the Property manager to another person I Don't understand the mechanics of why That would happen I don't know if he was Like hey they found this camera we don't Know whose it is why don't you just take It I don't get it but the other guy gets A hold of the camera Naturally as I think most of us would Probably do myself included he goes and Checks the pictures on the camera and What does he see well he sees a big ass Buck On a mineral site Somehow someway he figures out that this Fella killed that deer because there was A picture of it posted online on a Popular social media site that posts Trophy photos of Iowa books We'll just leave it at that I'm sure you Guys can figure out which site it is There's only one of them out there that I know of So he recognizes the deer sees that it Had been posted on this this social Media channel of these big Iowa bucks And has the trail camera pictures of the Deer at the mineral site

And for whatever reason I don't know maybe we'll never know Unless we talk to this person he decides This guy must have shot this deer over Over minerals which is illegal in Iowa Hunting over bait is illegal but putting Minerals out for purposes of like Inventory and whatnot tracking deer Feeding deer supplemental feeding not Illegal So we have two things we have a picture Of a deer On a mineral site And then we have a picture of the deer Dead With the guy that's all we got it was on This minerals Three weeks earlier three weeks later Now it's dead that's all we got they Bring that to the DNR the DNR much like The case of this guy from Virginia or Wherever he was from where was this Fellow from was he West Virginia West Virginia or I think he was from North Carolina hunting in West Virginia either Way very same situation We have no hard evidence we don't have Any proof we got no Witnesses we got no Blood trail or a bloody Arrow or Anything we got a live deer on a trail Camera picture and we got a dead deer on A trophy photo that's all we got they Decide that that is enough to try and Charge him with Wildlife violations for

Hunting over bait Now we all we've talked in the past and This is kind of ties into some of the Bomar stuff that happened recently in Nebraska about laciac violations so if You were an Iowa resident let's just say And you got busted baiting deer and Shooting a deer over bait Pretty much a ticketable offense they Write you a ticket they probably may Take your deer or something like that I Don't know but it's basically a ticket All right hey don't do that again here You go Now if you're a non-resident and you do The exact same thing and then you take That deer home with you because you live Out of state it now becomes a federal Crime it becomes a lacy act violation The exact same law you broke Exact same scenario but now we're Talking federal crime we're talking much Deeper punishments uh you're talking Potential jail time crazy fines etc etc Etc which is partially like what of the Bowmars were talking about like in their Whole case which is like Re-evaluating potentially the Lacy act Like in my opinion it does need to be Updated because that was not what the Spirit of that law was intended for but Regardless we're not talking about Mars Today or talking about this other guy Right

So now we fast forward to Um last August so about a year ago of 2022 guys taxidermist calls them says Hey man I'm ready I'm gonna Mount your Deer I'm a little bit ahead of schedule Can you bring me the rack because he Kept the rack at home with him naturally I know a lot of guys that do this they Don't want to just leave it at the Taxidermist because we've all heard These horror stories taxidermists got Broken into rack got stolen or in the One case it sounds like the taxidermist Maybe even sold the rack whatever so Drops the rack off at the taxidermist Within a couple weeks I forget two three Weeks all of a sudden knock knock DNR Shows up at the taxidermist uh Essentially my understanding is they Kind of Quasi maybe threaten the Taxidermis with like some violations Because they were checking his books and Saying hey you didn't do this right and You didn't do this right and you know if You cooperate with us we'll ignore this Stuff but we're going to take this guy's Rack because we believe the deer was Poached so the guy gives up the rack No search for it doesn't have to like There's no legal anything they just show Up and say like you need to cooperate With us and give us this and I think Most people Probably not knowing any better they're

Like hey do you have a warrant to take This like is there some legal like is Somebody like is can you actually do This normally they're like oh [ __ ] I Don't want to get busted for you know Failing to fill out a piece of paper Properly like yeah just take this rack So they take the guy's deer Then they contact him and say like hey We've confiscated your deer and Eventually he gets uh citations from the Iowa DNR for basically hunting over bait And now they what they do is they start Trying to ask them questions where were You blah blah blah blah he starts kind Of playing along a little bit you know But obviously like in most cases this is Going nowhere good they're trying to Catch you they're trying to get you to Say something they're they're leading Questions they're they're trying to Solidify their case against you so in Every case where this happens every Person should always say I'm not talking Period because we don't have to talk and I'm talk to my lawyer right that's what We should all do everybody regardless of What it is like you should never talk to Them you think you're helping but you're Not so in this case he says you know What guys I'm not talking to you talking To a lawyer so they issue him these Citations For uh again like hunting over bait and

Whatever the case may be Um now this is in some small town small County middle of nowhere Iowa so he Immediately hired a lawyer finds out That they only have 10 days to request a Jury trial for this so they have to like Kind of kick it into high gear request a Jury trial well of course what is what Does the Iowa DNR do they start Involving U.S fish and wildlife service Because of the potential laciac Violation right so they're escalating This thing up keep in mind he hasn't Been found guilty of doing anything he's Been issued these citations he's waiting Essentially his day in court Um in the meantime after he's already Been given the citations I believe he Said that they even like text messaged Them to him like pictures of him I think They got him to his house whatever They send a copy of the citations to his Employer Not addressed to him particularly but Addressed to his place of business where He works what normally happens in in Most places of business right the male Comes in somebody some administrative Person is typically in charge of opening The mail right and then Distributing it To wherever it goes unless of course It's directed to somebody in particular In this case it was not so it's almost As if they wanted it to be opened by

Someone other than the intended Recipient and we all know that like Regardless of whether you are innocent Or not if you've got multiple violations Being mailed to your employer and your Boss or co-workers see them like it's Going to cause questions it's going to Cause problems it's going to cause Issues It's not like they were having a hard Time getting a hold of this guy he Wasn't ditching them they never came to His house and a certified letters Whatever it's it's as though they did it To be [ __ ] right why else would you Do it there was no need for it they were Just like we want to mess with this guy We're going to send him to his work so Now he's of course rightfully so he's Getting pissed like why in the hell Would you do this why would you Essentially threaten a person's Livelihood because that's Kind of the intended consequence right Why else send them to their work unless You or have tried everything else and You can't get a hold of this person Right there's no need to do that and you Know potentially threaten a person's Livelihood this is a guy who's basically My same age I think he's 41 or 42. he's Married multiple kids stay-at-home wife Like if he loses his job over this whole Thing which he could have like that

Affects so much in this dude's life over What over what The couple trail camera pictures in a Picture with no real evidence like it Seems asinine to me that this would Happen so in any case After that he uh or I should say his Cell phone provider gets served a Warrant For his cell phone records so this seems To be a popular thing nowadays where They want to get your cell phone records I don't know if they're trying to find Exact locations if they're looking for Content in text messages or images or What exactly they do with it my Understanding is this is probably Location data if I had to guess they Want to know exactly where you were at I Don't know how granular that data can Get like if they can pinpoint like what Tree you were in or whatever the case May be So they get a search warrant for his Cell phone records they get a hold of This his cell phone records at that Point in time Eventually when this starts moving Forward and going to court they get to Court and they're reviewing the search Warrant for his phone records and they Find that the search warrant is not Signed it is not signed by a judge it Was an application for a search warrant

That was never executed so they never Had the right to get any of his Information But they got it anyways So Through the court proceedings and Whatnot there's two things that kind of Come up Did they have legal access to his phone Records which they eventually deemed They did not because the warrant was not Signed so any information that was Gleaned from that phone information Um could not be admissible in court now Of course I don't know what they found On his phone if they found anything of Any sort of value right he never told me There's no like I don't know I don't Know if maybe they did find a GPS Location of exactly where he was at Maybe in relation to where the bait was At or the minerals So I don't I don't know if there was Incriminating evidence or not according To him there was not The second thing they did was they used The trail camera pictures that we talked About earlier And you tried to use those as evidence And this is the part that really becomes Interesting because what they found in The end was that doing so violated his Fourth Amendment right against a legal Search and seizure both of the U.S

Constitution as well as the Iowa Constitution their state constitution so They essentially deemed that those Pictures were inadmissible as well which Kind of relates to this other case that We're talking about where the DNR came And took this guy's trail camera and was Looking at the pictures on it so now we Have two cases this one now has Officially been ruled upon as of July 7th so we're talking a couple weeks ago This was ruled upon in the state of Iowa And there's an entire brief Um about this individual piece right Uh so there's something called Open Fields Doctrine which I read about and Learned about which essentially says you Don't have the reasonable expectation of Privacy if something is taking place in The open So in a field somewhere so it basically Says like even if you erect defense or Something like that it doesn't mean that Um a helicopter can't fly over your Property and look at it or an airplane Or maybe now modern a drone something Like that says in the reasonable Expectation of privacy thing is Essentially like if a cop is like can Look in your car and see a bag of drugs On your seat like that gives him Probable cause right so in this Particular case cops were trying to say Because the camera was in the open and

It was in an open area you have no Reasonable expectation of privacy for That camera what the judge ended up Ruling was that uh that is only Partially correct Uh you have no reasonable expectation to Privacy of the camera itself but you Have reasonable expectation of privacy Of anything that is contained inside the Camera no different than a cell phone The cops happen to find your phone in a Field right they can take the phone but They need to get a warrant To access the contents of that phone and There was never a warrant obtained for The contents of this Fella's trail Camera cards so it essentially was again Deemed that a violation of his Fourth Amendment right so now they have no Evidence they got no cell phone data They have no Um trail camera card data but instead of Just immediately dismissing the case They kind of like go their separate ways Or whatever then they try to to Basically bargain with the guy and let Him play take a plea So he said they tried multiple times and Offered multiple plea deals like hey man Uh if you just pay a five thousand Dollar fine and suspension of hunting Rights for a year in exchange for a Guilty plea we'll call it a day and he Said absolutely not and they came back

And said how about 2500 in this and he Said absolutely not and then they came Back and said how about 500 no loss of Rights and I could be butchering what They exactly offered him but it was like A a declining scale of of punishments When they eventually realized they had No case and he just kept saying nope Absolutely not absolutely not absolutely Not not doing it because his biggest Fear was if I take a plea deal and I Plead guilty to doing this in Iowa which Is something I didn't do but if I just Wanted to put this behind me and pay the Money and call it a day I'm still Pleading guilty and thus can be charged With this interstate crime of violating Lacey act which could be punishable by Like 250 000 fine in like up to five Years in jail which we all know that Like nobody actually gets that unless You're doing something like egregiously Wrong we know that that's not what he Would get but that's what he quote Unquote could get so he just kept saying Nope nope nope nope nope and guess what Eventually case got thrown out because They had no evidence they couldn't go After him now he just was able to Recover his deer recently But I do want to read from so he sent me All the court rulings and paperwork so I Could verify all this information that He's telling me so there's a brief that

Was written by the judge in this case That I just want to read and this is Going to be a little bit long but I Think it's important because it's it's I Think it's really really good okay so it Says The state who's trying to prosecute this Guy right the state responds that the Defendants had no reasonable expectation Of privacy in the trail camera citing The Open Fields Doctrine which we talked About earlier which ironically has a Quite literal application to this case Further the state points out that the Camera and its contents were first Searched by a private citizen before Being turned over to Agents from the Iowa DNR which is what we talked about Earlier this other guy checked the Camera first then gave it to the DNR The state correctly notes that the Protections of the Constitution of the State of Iowa and the consultation of The United States do not extend to Searches and seizures by private Individuals so basically you have Protection via the Constitution against Illegal searches from the government but Not other people the the the Constitution doesn't protect you against That however private citizens do not Have the authority to file criminal Charges that has to be done by the state Further the state did not call any

Private citizens to testify at the Hearing Probably their mistake the charges Herein were filed by Agents from the Iowa DNR and the state's sole witness at The hearing was the DNR agent based on The contents of the citations and the Testimony at the hearing the court Concludes that these charges were Brought based on the search of the trail Camera conducted by Agents from the Iowa Department of Natural Resources as Agents of the state the court must Determine whether the search conducted By the DNR agents was conducted in Compliance with those protections Guaranteed by the Constitution of the State of Iowa and the Constitution of The United States so this is where They're saying like hey we got to figure Out if these charges you brought are are Valid or not because they're based on Evidence that may or may not violate Your constitutional rights In this instant case the court concludes That the warrantless search of the Contents on the defendant's trail camera Violated the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution and or Article 1 Section 8 of the Iowa Constitution while the camera may have Been found in an open field the contents Of the camera particularly the images on The saved SD card or other memory

Components were not in the Court's view The contents of these electronic devices Are somewhat like the contents of a Locked or a closed container in an Automobile Or the contents I gotta scroll to the Next page How do I get to the next page here we go Sting it or the contents of a cell phone Both of which the Iowa Supreme Court has Ruled or has held require a warrant to Search and one of which has also been Found to require a warrant under the Federal Constitution a person may not Have a reasonable expectation of privacy With respect to the device or container Itself but that expectation of privacy Does still extend to the contents held Within the court therefore holds that The search must be suppressed and the Contents found on the defendant's trail Camera SD card or other memory as a Result of the warrantless search are Fruit of the poisonous tree which I Found to be an interesting statement and Shall therefore not be allowed as Evidence against the defendant Pretty cool so I mean that's essentially Saying like hey sorry Cos DNR guys like you can't just go Rifling through people's private stuff Without a warrant and expect it to hold Up in court Now again I don't know what was on the

Card I never saw the pictures right I Mean was there a picture of This dude walking in to his stand that Night a picture of the deer on the Minerals like I have no idea you know Again I'm getting one side of the story He seems like a pretty believable dude He says he was Five to six hundred yards away from the Mineral station that night he was not Hunting over it he was only using it for You know inventory purposes which is Something we see regularly and this is Brings me to kind of the next phase of This conversation which is Iowa's laws Regarding feeding Supplementally mineral stations whatever Versus hunting their law is so Incredibly vague I don't know how Anybody out there Could be happy with the way Iowa's law Is written it's like one sentence that Says you like and it lists a whole bunch Of things that you can't do and it just Says you can't use bait for hunting That's it But who decides What that means how far away you must be From said bait right I went online and I Started reading and looking at the Forums I will Whitetail I went to a Bunch of Facebook groups I ended up by Midwest whitetails FAQ section all these Places and if you asked 50 people from

Iowa What the difference is or what the what The procedure is you'd probably get 50 Different answers some guy I was like Well a CO told me it's 100 yards from The bait some said 200 some said 300. Some said it had to be removed some said It didn't some said this some said that And in the end it definitively sounds Like it is up to the conservation Officer the CEO to decide whether he or She believes That when you shot that animal it was Being influenced by the bait or feed That is some in some unknown proximity To you it's literally a judgment call it Is up to them there is no standard There's nothing that says if your x Amount of yards away if the bait has Been removed if it's been this but There's literally nothing it's just Completely at the discretion and Judgment of the conservation officer Which makes no sense to me so this Happened a couple years ago you guys may Remember this there was a book called The Franz book It was shot in Iowa and at the time and It may still be I believe it was the Largest Whitetail ever killed on camera It's like 260 inches Brando you and I Watched the video the other night This Buck gets killed by Mr Franz hence The name of the Franz Buck on a piece of

Property at 80 acres that he had just Purchased that year Starts getting pictures of this deer During the summer he's like holy [ __ ] This thing's a giant so I'm sure there Was two-fold reasons why he wanted to Film these hunts number one for the show That he was involved in right obviously Who wouldn't but number two what he says Is I wanted to shoot this deer on camera So there was no question about the Legality of what I was doing which makes Perfect sense you would think I'm Shooting this deer on camera To cover my ass so people can't say I Was trespassing or I shot it at night or I had its head in a corn pile or Whatever the million stories that always Inevitably come out when somebody shoots A big deer so he eventually shoots the Buck kills the deer with a muzzle loader In Iowa's Muzzleloader season Same exact thing happens to this guy That happened to the gentleman stash That we're talking about right now DNR comes after him because a neighbor Probably jealous that he killed this Buck because they had been chasing it Too essentially reported that he was Hunting over bait when he was not you Could watch the video the guy's not Hunting over bait but they yet what Happens DNR comes confiscates the guys I Believe it was mounted already at that

Time so they come and they confiscate His mouth He has to spend untold amounts of money On lawyers and legal fees to go Represent himself in court and Eventually get the case I believe thrown Out I think that the judge either threw Out the case or he was found that he Didn't do it based on the video that we Had already seen so The Story Goes that The previous landowners had mineral Sites out on the property Perfectly common you could probably walk Into every property in Iowa and there's Middle mineral sites on it either active Or that have since been removed so there Was a mineral site that hadn't been Freshened with minerals and I don't know How long Somewhere around near where he was Hunting I never figured out how far away It was was it 60 yards 80 yards 100 Yards from his blind it was somewhere in The vicinity there was a hole in the Ground that was left by minerals that Used to be there where the deer would go Paw in it a little bit right that's what The DNR used to confiscate the largest Buck ever killed on camera it's like 260 Inch deer I believe was the growth score On this thing And cost this man tens of thousands of Dollars in legal fees they had they Literally had nothing to go on and when

They go into court and they watch the Video the judge ruled after watching the Video the deer was nowhere near the Minerals showed no attention to the Minerals wasn't licking pawing doing Anything to this mineral site it was Just bumping does around in a freaking Food plot and got shot just like Hundreds of other deer have But all because somebody was most likely Jealous and turns it into the DNR and It's like any time there's a big deer or In this case the guy was part of a show At the time it's like they want to try To make an example on them but they got No goddamn evidence I just don't Understand like how this how does this Happen How does anybody look at this and say Yes we want to bring charges You know unfortunately for this Franz Guy like he had enough financial Resources and for stash to be able to Defend themselves in a lot of cases People don't have that I believe that Stash told me his lawyer cost was Somewhere in like the 12 to 15 000 range Who's got an extra 12 to 15 grand to Defend themselves against the DNR who Has no evidence against you is trying to Bring this case against you and then They start offering you plea deals hey Man you just pay us five grand pay us 2500 bucks we'll let you off just give

You that guilty plea we keep your deer And you can just go on your Merry way We'll just we'll just wash our hands and We'll walk away but yet it costs you Tens of thousands of dollars to defend Yourself in court against No evidence To finally come out on the other end and Win you don't get the money back It's not like the government Cuts you a Check for your lawyer costs you're just Screwed you're out all this time all This money had to take time off work Drive to Iowa you know 900 miles or Whatever it was each way to get out There All for for what For a deer where he had a couple Pictures and he thought a guy like it's Just the whole thing to me is just Insane and it's crazy that that there's No ramifications or repercussions for Anybody involved on the state side of Things whether it's you know prosecutors CEOs judge like it doesn't matter they They just they're just We wanted to do this and we felt like we Should do it and it doesn't matter if we Were completely wrong In the end completely wrong completely Unjustified whatever like you as the Private citizen get screwed and I'm sure This happens time and time and time Again not just with deer but just with

Everything like you hear these just Horror stories of people being accused Of crimes that didn't do them and Spending time in jail and as you guys Know I listened to a ton of Rogan he's Always got Um the guy from the Innocence Project on Talking about this stuff and Interviewing people and it's just crazy To hear how they get railroaded into These types of things and far too often I think it happens because people can't Defend themselves or they get scared and They just take a plea deal or whatever The case or they admit to it and and Whatnot when they didn't even really do It so uh yeah this is a this is a crazy One I know that this this person who Again I'm not naming right now Uh he is I believe seeking some sort of Litigation against the conservation Officer that did all this to him Um that brought these charges like Without probable cause that served a Warrant that had that was not signed Violating his fourth amendment like I Don't know exactly what he can or will Be going after them for but I think That's a noble Endeavor there there Should there should be ramifications for All of us it doesn't matter who you are Or what you do if you are negligent in Your duties and you potentially like he Could have cost this guy his job his

Family his hunting rights he did cost Him tens of thousands of dollars and in The end was proven I guess he wasn't really proven innocent Per se there's entirely a possible Chance that he's guilty and that he's And that he's not telling the truth and That he's got off on a technicality that Is a possibility none of us will ever Really know that I suppose he's the only Person that's going to know that he was The only guy around at the time so we Don't know again what was on the SD card What was on the phone all we know is That just this whole thing seems fishy And if and if you look at these other Cases I think there's some precedent Here where I would err on the side of The hunter I think sometimes these cos Get a little overzealous especially when It's somebody from out of state that They think they can just roll right They're like this dude's from out of State what's he gonna do he lives 900 Miles away we're going to get his ass You know and what does the DNR want just Like in that Virginia thing they want to Confiscate that rack they want to take The picture with it they want to put it On Facebook they want to hang it up at a Trade show I remember going to the Wisconsin deer and turkey Expo in Madison is a kitten the DNR was there With just a wall full of bucks that They

Confiscated from people for poaching Them illegally shooting them at night And out of season and no tags and and All those types of things I think it was Called The Wall of Shame if I recall Said the Wall of Shame and it was just Giant bucks up there and it's like they Want to parade them around for everybody But at what cost right uh I don't know I Still just don't understand how With no evidence no Witnesses no Anything you can Say that somebody did this confiscate Their rack and cost them all this money Like there's no I guess probable cause or whatever I Don't know and you feel like I need to Be a lawyer I need to have a lawyer here Like explaining all this [ __ ] to me like How somebody can do that So that's the story it's insane What do you think Brando do you think he Did it or didn't do it I assume he probably didn't do it Yeah I don't think he did I mean I Talked to him for a long time and I Think there was I think at one point in Time he sent a map pin to The DNR of maybe where his camera was or Where his bait was his minerals were at And it was like a map of the property And again you could see the two fields And it's kind of like a Brushy draw with Some trees in between and I believe he

Told me something along the lines of Like the DNR was saying we know where Your camera and your minerals were at And there's nowhere else for you to be Hunting in that draw other than on top Of those so that's how we know you did It and he's like dude that's like that's Kind of [ __ ] right I could be Anywhere maybe I'm a really bad Hunter And I should pick really bad locations You don't know that yeah but I mean Suspecting that somebody did something And knowing it are two different things Yeah you know you have to know what they Did before you start causing this whole Chain of events this happens you're Throwing darts at a board yeah you can't Just think I'm pretty sure I know where You were at like that just seems crazy To me like what sort of Forget just being a CEO just what sort Of person does this to another person Right all over what a deer a deer we're Gonna ruin we're gonna try to ruin some Guy's life over a deer for a possible Promotion for being so good at your job That you just get all these arrests or Whatever yeah but obviously you suck at Your job if you didn't get the warrant Signed hello this isn't the way that Always goes though you think you're like Doing like the right thing you're good And then you're like oh crap I didn't do This one thing and it's all just Falls I

Think that's a pretty important thing Right that's pretty important for sure Yeah and they allege that there was a Signed copy of the Warren out there Somewhere but they were never able to Produce it I'm curious like how his cell Phone provider gave up the records Without a signed warrant Did they just send the undesigned Warrant they're like oh we got a warrant And they just didn't know any better Sure yeah I'm sure I mean all the time That seems insane to me On top of that so now you have a Violation of his fourth amendment which I think is one of the biggest things to Come out of this case which is like if There's there's precedent this judge Said verbatim this is a violation of not Just their state constitution but the U.S Constitution so if that happens to Anybody else out there where the DNR is Trying to use your trail camera photos Against you and they did not have a Warrant to access those photos They shouldn't be able to use them we Now have precedence that I think it's Very powerful thing for a lot of people Out there and obviously it could be used For for for bad too if somebody did do Something wrong You know and then and that's the Evidence the DNR has that they did Something wrong and now they can't use

It like but I suppose that's on them They got to get it they got to get a Warrant they have to get a signed Warrant and I think a judge is only Going to give a signed warrant if like There's enough evidence to say like this Person did this they're not just going To be like yeah man we think maybe Possibly we don't know I don't know the Neighbors pissed because the guy killed The buck he's been after for three years So how much does the judge have to know About hunting because right maybe the Judge has I mean I assume a judge in Iowa would probably know a lot about Hunting but you know it's quite The Stereotype brand new is there like an Expert that have to call in to like be The intermediary explaining what these DNR officers to the judge the judge Understands I don't know Like he said that when he had to go to Court do you remember the movie nothing But trouble did you ever watch that one Chevy Chase back in like the 80s oh man Great movie it like brought me like I Haven't thought of that movie in forever And he's like remember nothing but Trouble and I was like oh yeah he's like Reminded me of the court from that movie And I was he's like it was like very Barney Fife stuff like middle of nowhere Iowa little little small County Town Whatever it happened to be so it's a lot

Of everyone knows everyone type of deal Protecting each other type of deal right I mean all the all the stuff that you Hear about where you're like nah that Doesn't really happen nah that that's Apparently it actually happens so I'm Glad that he won his case I'm glad that He got his deer back Um it'd be interesting to see what Happens kind of from here on out I'm Gonna keep continuing to to be in Communication with this fella and see Where his stuff goes like what he Basically said was like I don't want Money I'm not suing for money or Whatever he's like I just want somebody To be held accountable like this was Negligence on their part which cost me Dearly on my part So I just want there to be some sort of Accountability For them because that's the thing we Hear a lot of too like there is never Any accountability like if we screw up Massively at our jobs we get fired right Or or some we were held accountable in Some way it seems like in this case like Whatever better luck next time we'll get The next guy it comes from out of state Like I wonder what would have happened If he wasn't from out of state we could Speculate all we want never know we'll Never know we will never know but I Don't think it would have turned into

Such a big deal where they were like Subpoenaing phone records and whatnot But it seems to be like oh there's this Out of state jerk off he came here from Detroit we don't like we don't like the Lion City Boys Yeah We don't like City Slickers we don't Like Ford or GM around here We're gonna get his ass So anyways that's today's story if Anybody else has crazy stories that they Want to share with us like this like if You feel like you've been wronged By the long arm of the law tell us about It I'd be happy to have you on the Podcast love to hear the Grievances Airing of the Grievances it's Festivus So that's it for today's special episode Of the pinch point we hope you guys Enjoyed this crazy story and maybe I Don't know what we can do about it other Than just uh get awareness out there and We should try somebody should try to get The laws in Iowa changed so there's some Sort of clear definition on what you can And cannot do how could you feel Comfortable going out in the woods not Knowing if some vindictive Co is going To come after your ass because they said You were hunting too close to the bait Or where the bait used to be or the Debate influenced the whatever whatever Like

Everybody in Iowa That shoots a big buck I promise you if You live there you've got the two things This guy had a trail camera picture of a Buck on a mineral site and a dead Picture of the buck afterwards Everybody's got that I mean that happens Thousands of times a year in Iowa And if that's the only two things you Need to bring a case against somebody And cite them for violations like that's Pretty scary they could do it to anybody I mean dude there's there's tons of Shows out there you look at any of these Iowa people right and there's a reason That a lot of the you know top Hunters If we will in this industry live in Iowa Because they got the biggest and best Bucks duh but I mean you go back you Look at lakovski's you look at kiss Keys You look at juries you look at beaumars Now you look at all these Iowa names Dude they're all feeding and I'm not Saying there's anything wrong with it or That they're doing anything wrong my Guess is none of them are doing anything Wrong but again you get a CO who gets a Hair up his ass one day decides he Doesn't like you and wants to say that Hey you got a mineral Station 200 yards Away down this fence line and you shot The buck here well I think that that Buck was traveling to or from that Mineral station and I want to cite you

Like that's all it takes and there's Almost no way for you to defend yourself You can't say well the law reads I was Needs to be 300 yards away and I was 301. like there's literally nothing you Can do it's just like your word against Their word which seems pretty crazy to Me I you would think somebody in Iowa would Change the law to be like I remember in Illinois here when we used to be able to Allow to feed we could never bait and Hunt over it it was like an area is Still considered baited for like I think It was 10 days if I recall like you had To remove the the bait or the mineral or The brick or whatever it was 10 days And then if I recall I think there was a Specific amount of yards away that you Had to be so if you were even if you Removed it right that area was Considered baited for 10 days and I Think you had to be like 200 yards away So draw a circle and I think that's how Nebraska is Nebraska says you can feed But you can't Bait so when Todd and I were in Nebraska At the Outfitter The Outfitter had big feed stations out And he had pins on a map and we drew Circles around it I think it was 200 Yards or 250 yards around that bait we Could not hunt within that Circle he Made it very very very clear to us do

Not go within this range Of this feeder but it made it very cut And dry black and white if you're inside Of that Circle you're in violation if You're outside of it you're good I don't Understand why Iowa wouldn't put more Clarification in their system my Understanding from reading what DNR Agents have said they've actually said They wish there would be more Clarification too because there's Probably times when they're trying to Prosecute somebody and they're having a Hard time doing it because of the lack Of clarification so this can go both Ways so somebody in Iowa it looks like That friends guy tried to do this after His case was over from what I could read Looks like they introduced some sort of Legislation wanted some changes and it Never got made But I don't know why who would hold that Up It's the Earth big big deer the big deer Lobby The mineral Lobby the deer mineral Lobbyists I don't know like who's got an Advantage who wins who is that good for Other than the state Other than the state being able to Prosecute people For a gray area That's the only reason you wouldn't want To have that

I don't know I've talked too long this is a long Podcast but this is some heavy Deep stuff that we all need to think About in our souls so thank you all for Listening we will be back next week with More tales and Adventures of people Getting shot with crossbows and poaching Animals and just generally doing stupid Things so we appreciate you guys all for Watching and or listening make sure you Subscribe like share comment whatever You want to do just support the pinch Point we'll see you guys next week I'm out of here

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