Dudley & ElkShape Talking Arrows

Dudley & ElkShape Talking Arrows – it’s almost fall archery season so to kick it off proper me and the DUD aka @nockonarchery are chatting about arrows and tuning! #ABT #ElkShape #Nockon

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Guys what's up welcome to the Oak shape Podcast talk shape YouTube channel today We're bringing on John Dudley knock on Archery should be a good show we're Going to ask him some questions that I Had folks email in from Instagram and We'll see what he has to say I get to Know how what a season looks like Um how his business is running how Tech Was and then getting some tuning Questions and just geek out and hang out With the dudman no you can't say Anything that you don't want the on the World wide web it's pretty rare that That happens truthfully Uh Uh what do you think of this Um dude my mom loves that I get I Actually wore that shirt my mom loves Roosters and so she always she like gets All these rooster like sculptures and Crap and I was wearing that uh a year Ago I think during Whitetail season and Uh I was kind of videoing my mom because People had never kind of seen her like Talk about me you know so I was kind of Just asking her random questions and She's just like oh my God I love that Rooster what is it and I go it's a Tactic and she's like I want to Attack the and I'm like okay Mom oh God so yeah very familiar with that Freaking rooster dude uh nanabeth was uh

All about the tactic dude that's Cool uh where's mom live is she uh in Iowa as well Natchez Mississippi Man Where I where I cut my teeth hunting Down the Mississippi Delta well Technically Natchez isn't the Delta Cleveland's the Delta I guess down in That area but um yeah down in Natchez Well I like to start podcasts off by Insulting my guests so here we go uh I Here here's what I don't like I don't Like how cool your background is how Cool you're artwork is how clean your Branding is and all the little tension To detail it really annoys me and that's A compliment what uh Who did the stuff behind you dude that Is so sick Um it really depends we have an awesome Team Um I've Through The Years honestly it Started Back with uh when Darren and I were Doing DVDs out of the car and I actually Did a I did I bought yesterday you did Did you really oh yeah yeah I did a Podcast today with uh with Wayne and the Cop And uh Wayne was like you know I was Kind of talking to Wayne and he goes I Remember when you pulled up in your Tacoma selling DVDs out of the car he's Like you had literally your whole life Was in the car because I did I put

Everything I owned hunting wise in my in My truck one year uh it was actually When I had left Matthews and went out on My own so Um I had severance pay so I'm just like If I'm ever gonna just drive out west And and and actually explore every state Out west and try to find every Over-the-counter tag and just hunt Unknowns this is my one chance in life To do it and I did it and I forgot that I actually drove all the way up to the Bow shop To kind of pop in and Wayne reminded me That and I was like oh my gosh it was Kind of sad because it made me realize How much stuff that I forget too Um but on that original DVD we were Actually working with uh a buddy of mine Dan Um who did did the first DD uh hat and Then Um a person named Antoine who's been With us since the very beginning I Actually met Antoine and Sharon Um on the same trip to uh Europe to Compete in an International Event I met both those guys Antoine started Helping me with those DVDs and the edits With that and Dan started helping with Some of the very first the very first Artwork the logo itself was actually Done by Mitch who uh is commissioned With Hoyt he actually did the very first

Logo Dan is an amazing artist Dan did Scully Um based on Sharon Sharon actually Normally Cher and I like in even in here There's two huge chalkboards so every Room that I occupy has a chalkboard in It like at work there's chalkboards in Every single office we have like you Know we have three buildings downtown so Every building where I come in and talk To people there's always chalkboards There's two chalkboards here Um there's three huge chalkboards in the In the kitchen where Sharon and I do a Lot of concepting and then obviously and Then there's other places that have it Too but um this is pretty cool this is No one's really ever saw the details of This I'll show you so you can you can be The first let me unplug power so Um and then and then this whole wall the The entire wall for this particular spot Here this entire wall all the way around Was actually something that I that we Put together Um with another one of Um are really good there actually have All been followers to begin with they Were all followers that reached out so I Mean I'm sure sometime you'll have the Same uh but Tim Uh Jester did a lot of this stuff so This is actually my personal office Um this is normally where people come to

Me but it's kind of where I occupy so There's an upstairs too Um that has a lot of my older inventory And such but um so this is kind of where People see me do content I'm normally Just in my office so it's pretty nice Um I mean right here it's kind of some of My tools tools I mean you probably like All this yeah I do it's pretty awesome Uh but yeah everything I'm a I'm a very Organized neat freak so like I like it So like here here's you'll probably like This so like uh-huh you know if you like When P you know they just keep going and And going and and going and and going And So yeah this is kind of where I come and And uh I normally come into my office by About 4 45 in the morning or so Sometimes earlier and and uh this is Where I do things I've got like most of My bows are all over there Um and then there's obviously ones Downtown too but whatever I'm currently Working on is here so right now I'm Currently working on the Aero discussion Um so with that I actually have been Doing a lot of testing with Um With Arrows with multiple models so There's a RX7 back there there's a phase Four back there too so Um yeah that's it that's a look well

It's funny we were at talking um you're Like hey man I'm going hunting soon this Is my last attack I finally get to like This is what I'm looking forward to but I do have a couple weeks of a podcast Tour if you want a pot I was like oh Yeah no doubt it's been a while let's Get you on and you've been doing it but About a week ago or maybe so by the way I'm a creator of content not much of a Consumer of content as you probably too Exactly I never have time to consume Anything So I got word that you were Spitting Fire on um the socials about arrows and I got super excited I did watch Um part probably a tail end of one where You were shooting in your backyard at 70 Yards and you were shooting a couple Different manufacturers and you were Just like major in the majors don't make I'm paraphrasing folks but basically John was saying major in the majors not The miners like you can't paralysis by Analysis on like the minute details of Which way your arrow clocks are which Vein configuration or FOC why do you Just put the freaking working and you're Soaked in sweat I could see the Midwest Humidity and you said you were coming up On 500 arrows what inspired you to go on This Rampage which I love Um honestly Being on that last attack and seeing

People that went backwards in where they Were in archery based on the fact that They were spending too much time trying To focus on The gadgets rather than the technique And the fundamentals you know it's just Like you know I I the guitars are the One thing like if I'm just my mind's Like clouded with archery I started Trying to teach myself how to play Guitar about a year and a half ago and So And what I've learned on that is Um I don't I honestly don't buy a lot of Things for myself I buy shoes I buy Jay Ones and I buy guitars you know Occasionally so but what I've what I've Learned is regardless of how good the Guitar is none of them make me a better Guitar player what makes me a good Guitar player is coming in opening my Gibson app or my Justin guitar and Literally just looking at a lesson and Working on fundamentals and working on Mind muscle connection mind muscle Coordination and so like with archery That's the same thing you know I've I've I actually did some coaching today with A few a few friends that are getting Ready they're higher profile people so That they don't really go into shops Right and Um they were sending me some results and Asking me you know why am I declining

And I'm like okay One how far is that they tell me and I'm Like two it looks like it's windy yes And I'm like dude It's so important that like just because You can shoot 100 yards like if you're Gonna litmus test yourself Based on not shooting great groups at 100 that's the best time to just bring It back make the target bigger focus on The fundamentals and shoot so attack in Utah And you know I'm I'm fortunate that I See A minimum of 10 000 Arrows fly just Attack events just standing over the top Top of people at my Target and watching Arrows fly and I don't remember names But I remember setups and I remember Gear and so when I see people and all Sudden I watch this Arrow fly and you Know there is kind of squirreling around This heavy ass Point that's you know Leading the way in the in the rest and Then they're kind of over here or over There or the amount of people are like Yeah I'm just having to hold over this Year and I'm and I'm thinking I'm just Like gosh this is people are People are like so worried about this Penetration thing that it's starting to Take people backwards so I just had to I Just had to come forward and just say Listen I just want everyone to be good

Archers I want you to shoot and listen If Um you know I told this to Wayne so Uh a buddy of mine told me he's like hey I'm gonna go shoot an elk with my Recurve and I'm like awesome he told and Like you know and he goes and gets one I'm like pumped I said what's the specs On that he tells me you know what it was He he killed an elk with 28 pounds of Kinetic energy and and no one thinks About that but that's like what a tradbo Does right it's like and everyone Everyone's just like freaking that's Awesome you got one with a tradboat but For some reason when we have something That's 3x that's ability 3x that ability and we're over killing It You know it's it's just there's a There's a middle ground and I'm trying To focus people on not sweating the Details if they're not in the upper end Of their advancement in archery Have a great setup trust a great shop Buy quality products buy arrows that Have great straightness And just focus on the fundamentals of Letting arrows go and Doing it the same every time and all These Minor Details they really don't Even show up for the best of us Sometimes or if they do they're they're Measurable only because we're competing

At a professional level for score But when it comes to kill zones like you Know you want to be able to shoot the Tightest group possible on a Kill Zone Because the reality is That Kill Zone has the ability to move In a hunting situation And if if if that arrow is going to go Right here on the screen every time and This target has the ability to drop Turn all this stuff the bottom line is Your arrow has to be able to go right There because if your arrow goes is is Possible to go here and this is Happening we'll yeah now this is Problematic so I'm just really trying to To focus on accuracy and telling people Listen there's a lot of middle grounds On arrows but there's we're so lucky Because there's so many great broadheads Out there that fly really good Regardless of what you choose you know This is a ongoing endless endless topic That I don't think will ever get solved You know it's like um I just did a Interview with um Outdoor life they did it they did they Did a couple of different articles based On on Hunting elk and you know we talked About shot angles and stuff like that And they actually have a very very good Broadhead test that I looked at and he Told me he's like you know what and an Iron will did exceptional they I mean I

Think I think overall Iron Will was kind Of leading that Um from you know the push test super Sharp obviously so I'm like listen You're you should be more focused on What Broadhead will poundage or what Broadhead will deliver the penetration That you want based on the equipment That you're shooting because our options In broadheads are really what a what is Going to decide a lot of this stuff that We're spending more time thinking about Rather than looking for researching a Really good head with good reviews that Flies as close to a field Point as Possible and just going out there and Knowing where that freaking Broadhead Hits like that's going to help you more As a bow hunter than any of this other Stuff that's that's taking you down some You know some Some awkward roads I guess Yeah man so like you said uh like you Were seeing a lot of high heavy focs at Tack and you know not tuned bows and all Sorts of stuff like Um where where is this bad information Are they they're just getting it on the Internet like or there's articles or Like what where are people consuming Maybe I'm not a consumer I I you know I Honestly I see it I don't necessarily Know where all they get it from I've Certainly heard names in like one of the

One of the names that we all know I'm Just going to say Troy because I don't Like going by people's like character Names Um but you know there's and honestly What I know here yeah okay I know Troy And character name yeah but yeah I know Troy I've had him um I've met him in Real life and I've had like a a Conversation with him and I even let him Um he did ask to come present at an elk Shape camp and we allowed afforded him The opportunity and that video is on my Channel and I love Troy dude so before You say anything I'm going to tell you Like I I asked Troy in front of Everybody and on video I was like have You ever killed an elk with a bow And at the time he said he had not and I Said okay and and I did that on purpose Because I wanted to make it really clear That I still believe like proof's in the Puddin and um I love what he does and I Like that he's got his own flavor and I Think that if anything he's bringing More attention to archery so there's a Lot of positives with that dude yeah and I think he's a super nice guy but yeah I Do hear his name get mentioned quite a Bit in some of my content so as you were Sorry to interrupt John no that's good So Um you know people people are Immediately tagging him like uh oh you

Know here we go and honestly He reached out pretty quick And I just made it really clear I'm like Hey dude I've never watched anything you Do what I what I did tell them is years Ago I was actually contacted by someone At the Ashby foundation and I was Actually someone had dangled the carrot Of giving me I don't know if there's an Ashby award but this carrot was like Dangled in front of me and I was just Like okay well uh what is this but with That came like you need to embrace the Principles of the Ashby Foundation to Qualify for this award and I just and That was the first time I had saw the Chart and I just said well hey this this Chart I mean so much of it tells people They're inadequate and I said and Honestly if if you look at I mean I'll put you in this Dan you Me Randy Almer uh Joel Maxfield Wayne Endicott okay I'm just gonna do a Handful That handful of people have shot more Animals under rated on that chart and Had no problems Like I can just stop there so I I don't Feel like it was I feel like it was Information and I haven't Dove totally Down and I just know it's information Based off penetration that was needed

With traditional equipment on dangerous Gain right so certainly there's Applications for that but there's also a Middle ground where people can keep Their pins tight they can they can miss Range yardage by you know a much smaller Fraction of the number and you know and With that and also with The Arc you know You look at you look at like the Arc of The arrow I went back and reviewed some Of my older footage And I more importantly I reviewed Footage of animals I've lost or didn't Hit okay and The majority of either one of those two Have to do with really three things Um one deflection deflection It it magnifies with Arc okay deflection Is one two Miss ranging like you know a Majority of my misses have been in like Bean Fields canola wheat where you're Trying to just get a range of a tine That's in there and get your site set And you're just totally just tension on The string for hours waiting for that Thing's butt to come up so you can just Get back and be ready But a lot of times you're off by a yard Or two right so so it's like the slower The projectile and honestly the more Open the country the longer the distance Is naturally going to be and the more Important the flatness of that Arrow Will be too so it's like you know and

That so that's that the other thing That's caused my misses are What I've noticed from film and this is Like very clear on things like antelope And deer okay elk and moose are a little Bit slower to react but when you have an Animal that's in a broadside position Feeding and you take a shot and they Freaking come up You know they're the first thing they Want to do is locate where is the sound Of danger they want to locate Once they want to locate then they want To in my mind they want to confirm okay Where did that noise come from okay There it is is that danger yeah I gotta Get out of here but if they're still Like where did the noise come from where Do the noise Okay now we have a successful hunt So what I've told people and what I see In footage is when I've shot like Prototype veins or when I've shot Honestly some broadheads with a very Open vented shape when I see animals Turn And then all of a sudden their their Eyes go up They're their their confirmation isn't Like they heard a sound they're looking There now all of a sudden they have Their confirmation of there's a sound Coming at me And that's what it instantly goes full

Trigger to a string jumper or a string Inverter you know it's that secondary Sound so yeah if we can have a quiet bow Where they don't necessarily like where They're like wait what's that okay done Which last year I shot a mule deer at a Pretty long distance in canola Um I had honestly he stood up on me Probably four times where I had to let Him stand up to get my range and luckily That happened because It I couldn't really get it when he was Laying down in the canola and then he Would stand up he'd find new shade and Bed down well there's still a yard or Two difference I was a touch high and I Was a touch High because he had actually Like when he got up and he repositioned In that bed once I went up and found my Arrow the bed was actually two yards Closer than when he had stood and I and I was able to peek up and get a good Range so it's like those little things Are real life hunting situations to Where these factors that I'm talking About is what's going to make people Either Notch a tag Or have the worst feeling of their life And I feel like more attention to that Is more important so I'm those are the Subjects I was trying to go on and In all fairness Troy reached out he Introduced himself he kind of said I go I go by this name and I kind of told him

You know hey I'd love to have some Discussion I gave him my phone number I Said you know let's let you know let's I Would love to talk so Um you know and and honestly I think He's agreeing there's there is a middle Ground which is awesome and that was Really my start to it but then once I Went down that path Dan then it started To become obvious like things started to Refresh in my mind like okay what are All the details of an arrow and a bow That actually make poor people more Accurate so I've did a few different tasks which and I thought it was important that I shot Live Um that I didn't have cuts Um I thought that was I thought that was Completely important right and so now These other ideas are coming in my head Um This is awesome Rogan just text me Um he That's great sorry about that he so Today I did a podcast which is an urgent Urgent message about Um the archery in the school program Funding yeah Uh I actually did a podcast this morning With with uh Dan Forester who's actually Going to Senate today and I sent that Link to Joe and I said please bro the Archery Community needs your help please

If you could share this that would be Great Um so yeah and and now now that I'm Like shooting some arrows I'm I'm like You know what I can show people things That that they can do that make a Difference and honestly just make it More accurate so one of the things That's coming uh this week is I'm gonna Actually talk about the arrows that I Shoot there's three of them I'm going to Talk about the what's and whys which era Which era should you choose and which Arrow do I choose and then another one That's going to be coming here in the Next week is um I've actually got bows Where the the bow will be served with Three different serving diameters and I'll be able to show the diminishing What no what are the diameters that you Chose Um I'm just going to serve with an Eighteen thousands 21 and a 25 and show How those different knock fits will Affect different groups downrange okay Cool that's that's awesome yeah I've Really really particular on that number Uh when I'm doing my setups I wanted to Ask you because you are an Iowa dude and A whitetail connoisseur Whisperer and You live and breed and like literally Haunt the world's best Whitetail in my Opinion just my opinion would you be Willing to make concessions on an arrow

I.E go up in weight up to 100 to 200 More grains whether it be tip weight or In the arrow GPI what have you to Achieve like more of a guarantee on Penetration and or a quieter Arrow To improve your momentum and to scratch That Troy itch at all would you make Concessions on a whitetail or would you Consider you'd use the same Arrow That you always have done So Um part of part of what happened with um Part of what happened with this podcast I did about the nasp was it kind of Brought me back so When nasp was very first started Um our very first curriculum and the Very first instructors that were taught Were actually taught in our boys and Girls club at Sparta Wisconsin I was in the very first Class the very you know it was literally Like the fourth person to ever be Certified you know there were four of us Rod white helped you know with the very First one Um and Kevin stay who was president of Brennan Industries at the time which is Who made the Matthews bows I actually took those bows uh overseas To what I did was I took the original Nasp curriculum and I went overseas and I actually taught that to International Shooters that didn't understand English

Very well to see how well that Curriculum would work if there was Limitations to translation which is a Very good litmus test for it right You'll actually you'll appreciate this So uh There's There's young dud right there this was That a leather jacket yeah oh yeah dude That was a leather Matthews jacket by The way first of its kind look at that Dude you need one of those yeah I kind Of want one yeah you need one so that Yeah there so there's the very first Students internationally So what's funny about this is that bow I Was holding uh was that was like my First Genesis right there and it matched My hat I killed a deer with that At 17 pounds dude I killed a whitetail with a Genesis bow At 17 pounds with a I think it was a 2216 and a hundred grain steel Force Head Kill the gear so dude What we're talking about is like not Even relative to the Whitetail world you Know and the other thing too is Whitetail are highly reactive so long White tail shots are a dangerous Situation you know whitetails what I Think what there's always a debate What's cooler like killing a big

Whitetail during the rut or L I mean Honestly I'm gonna say elk But when a big freaking Whitetail comes To Antlers and he comes in and his Hair's bristled up and slobbers hanging Out dude Just shoot it you know if you've got a Bow just shoot that thing if you have a Good head now listen if you're gonna If you're going to go out there which I Have I um so the very this goes way back So the first uh expandable Broadhead I Was personally ever Um introduced to was a rocket Arrowhead And I actually got a flyer in the mail Because I had my archery shop shop at The time it was called tenuring archery I got a flyer in the mail from rocket This was when this was like early 90s Okay mid 90s and they actually had a cow On this freaking flyer dude hanging up They had bought a beef cow And shot this thing with broadheads and Freaking sent it out And I called them and I'm like this is The most ridiculous horrific thing to Represent bow hunting I've ever seen Come in the mail and I just chewed the Owner's name was Greg I just ripped him A new one up and down dude and he and so He just said you know what I'm gonna I'm Not gonna use that anymore I really Value your opinion but can I send you Some heads

So he sent me Um some heads and honestly I think I Still have some in that drawer right There he sent me a two gallon Ziploc bag With rocket 100s And he's like as many things as you can Shoot with this I value your feedback And so with that came rocket went crazy On expandable Cuts right I tested a four And cut rocket dude I tested four inch Cut Rockets shooting an ACC 360 out of Uh at the time it would have been a Feather Max Okay and dude like when you want to talk About questioning penetration That's when I was kind of like okay it Killed this thing but that didn't go in Very far so like obviously there's very Big extremes like if you're trying to Push something like that through but Dude you grab a Genesis bow and and take A an Iron Will and shoot into some gel And you're gonna be like that's a dead Deer yeah You know what I mean last week I said Hey y'all I'm going on a pod with Doug Send in your questions and we got quite A few I'm a little bit I'll be honest I Mean I'm always honest I was like a Little disappointed in the questions I Was like that really that's all you got That's what that's what you want to know Um so we'll do a couple but the other Idea has maybe potentially I'll just go

Live On Instagram and get real life questions But there's that's always a little scary You never know what we're gonna get There But I can filter those out I usually I'm Usually composed I'm not super afraid of That yeah I'm usually composed I don't The one thing I'll tell you is um It's hard to For me like and honestly this goes like Right to working out like I told you I'm Like dude I I think you saw me and you said like Why don't you ever like show some of Your Fitness stuff and I'm like that's For you and cam that's for you and Cam I Mean dude I work out with my son Normally in like a shirt like this like You know and Harry's Harry's full Keephammering dude he's got his sleeves Cut off That's all his out All the time and you know he's on swole Patrol and loving it and I'm I'm just Like you know what my thing is has Always been I'm I'm reclusive I'm in my Little zones Um Maybe I got that from when I used to be You know one of the very few guys that Had access to to Matt McPherson's Design Lab where he worked on a lot of his Stuff and and I was fortunate to be the

One for you know a decade that that shot That stuff and you know check the tune First and and you know had to bring in Paper with like hey here's how here's How it would shoot Um so I've just kind of been in a little Bit different position and I've never Really felt good about like talking About my Accolade it's like I have Lately only because I'm like listen a Lot of these youngsters weren't even Around when I shot I mean honestly Levi Was in the youth division When I shot you know he was he was like His girl I think his grandpa was Bringing him to shoots if I remember Um like I remember that part you know so And and honestly I I think I looked a Lot different then so Some people have forgot about that stuff And I I don't feel like I did a great Job like explaining that but like that Portion of my life my timeline was Literally to be able to have a Podium to Where I could teach teaching's always Been my passion you know the very first Time I started writing was for 3D Times Magazine I wrote an article called or I Wrote a column they gave me a column Called rookie on tour because I lived Out of my car Um I drove my truck I had a little Coleman tent that I bought at Walmart I Would set that thing up right outside

The practice range and I would sleep at The events until until Jerry Carter came Along and and allowed me to Sell releases with him out of his out of His 10 by 10 well he literally had a Table with a silver suitcase on it dude Like that's what we were Jerry doesn't Like driving himself or he didn't at That time I was too young to rent cars I Wasn't allowed to rent cars so Um when I started flying to events Because at that then I started working At Matthews and I had limited vacation So I would dock Fridays so I would like Get the earliest morning fly down on a Friday I would drive four hours so that I could get a direct flight into Wherever I was instead of flying out of Sparta and I would fly there and when I Landed I would literally sit on my bow Case at the at the baggage carousel Waiting to see someone else's bow case Come out and I would say can I have a Ride to the ASA event Or IBO event and then you know luckily I Met Jerry and you know for probably Three or four of the first years I Actually traveled with Jerry and April And I babysat their kids Um and I would literally hustle releases For them as soon as I came off the range I would get in the booth and hustle Releases for him and Jerry you know if I Sold enough releases Jerry buy me dinner

And and you know and then it got to the Point where they would pay for a room And this was like this was huge for me And then eventually I started rooming With Dave stepp and Brian Jones and then That's when the trouble When the trouble started So um I love that history man yeah I Just um I've I've never like been one to Kind of like Uh you know like puff up unless I feel Like I have to so that people value the Information sure so I'm I'm like totally Comfortable with you know if I'm not Comfortable I'll just say I prefer not To say but I don't I really do not like To talk bad about Brands Um I like to talk about what people do Good you know like I said hey uh Bill's A great guy he makes a great product and His product has evolved you know I gave Him some feedback on some you know I Think I I have a one of his very first Broadheads he was gracious enough to Send me and I gave him some feedback on It and you know what it might not be Because of me but he's made some changes To that feedback that I think made his Product better so you know it's like I Don't want to burn I don't want to I've Never wanted to burn Bridges I think That's very apparent with with Matthews And with Hoyt and with PSE I've been at Some very reputable companies every one

Of my departures has been very you know I think think positive and and I try to Really set a I try to set up I try to set a bar that's a positive bar For anyone that's representing companies And making changes or deciding on Another product I think the best thing To do is just focus on what you do good Don't focus on what other people don't I Love it all right well I think we should Go live if you're down Let's do it dude all right let me uh see If I remember how to do this I don't go Live very often all right guys we are Live we're podcasting with Jay dudd we Might bring him on here so you can see But these are your questions Um all right so I'll give you the first One that I got sent in and a guy was Wanting to know dud like he says his Name's Sean and he says ask dud how he Shoots a 300 spine arrow with a 30 and a Half inch draw at 75 pounds with 150 Grains up front I feel like the spine Charts would tell folks to go to a two 60 axis Okay so First off Hey buddies there he is All right Um so first off We I actually rewrote the Easton chart So on the knock-on website the Eastern Chart has been Rewritten Um based on what I actually found

Because at the time all these charts Were not based on the fact that we had Heavy inserts Um so some of these heavy inserts dot I Got to interrupt you you got to jump in On this so people can see so you gotta Jump we're gonna have John join here and But there might be a weird delay I'll Have to turn you down though that's Right I'm in request to join elk shapes Live video Send request okay dude we're we're uh We're we're live broadcasting over Don Jr Yeah okay so in regards to the spine Where we're going we're going uh and I'll I'll tell everyone watching here to Uh jump in soon enough so Um so I rewrote the spine chart based on The fact that at the time there was not Heavy inserts so I used to have uh Darren Cooper and I did a thing on this Um we used to actually put screws in the Back of some of the first inserts so That we could get heavier weight for a Little bit higher FOC I actually had Brass machined for all my acc's back in The day Um so what I've learned over time is Some of those original charts they were Based on when when compound bows first Came onto those Arrow charts They recognize compound cams as hard Cams and originally a lot of the cams

Were very hard especially some of the Some of the hatchet cams and in the Original charts there was actually soft Cams medium cams and heavy or aggressive Type cam systems and so the more Aggressive the cam and the more Dynamic Force on the Arrow the more you would Have to like stiffen that spine stiffen Up a little bit yeah right so that so That's one part of the equation the Other part of the equation Is so if we go back to when some of Those charts were originated we didn't Quite know what we know now in the cam Development era so some of the very First cams had knock travel that really Varied depending on the manufacturer and Each manufacturer at that time had a Different opinion on what it should be And some had no freaking clue at all What they were even doing okay so I'm Going to give you two examples and There's two different theories to it Matthews wanted straight knock travel And that was a huge marketing campaign Of ours so we did a ton of footage where We measured the knock travel from the Bow at rest to where it got pulled all The way back to full draw and we plotted That on a perfectly straight line and The draw and the curves of the cam and The draw curve was made so that every Single draw length and that's a big Reason why in the very first Matthews

There was Cam's very specific to their Draw length you had a 27.5 inch cam a 28 Inch camera 29. we had to do that Because we're at the very first stages Of being able to draw a perfectly Straight line and so as that and and it Was an easy marketing campaign because It's like if you want your broadheads to Go straight your knock needs to be going Straight okay Once that happened Well now the arrow has a very different Type of pressure on it it's being drove Straight from the back right but then Hoyt came forward and on some of hoyt's Testing and especially since their Engineers are Target guys keep in mind Hoyt has an engineering staff devoted to Target dudes okay Uh what they wanted was a knock travel That slightly Rose at the tail end of The curve because what they were finding On lizard tongue style rest were you You're sitting an arrow on here That That downward pressure at the beginning Of the cycle forced the arrow to ride That Arrow shaft out better without it Like literally like kind of skipping and So on some of the perfectly straight Knock travel bows you would actually Have a little more wear on one side of The arrow or one side of the blade Because it even though it was being

Supported it wasn't being driven in okay Then at that time Um Kevin Struthers is Kevin right Kevin Struthers from Botox Um strothers came out with the crazy Fast bowtex that were just like how can I put as much freaking pressure on this Arrow as humanly possible right so When we tested a BowTech and we actually Brought a machine to the ATA show and we Invited Kevin over we Matt literally Showed Kevin how to repurpose his cam For better tuning because the BowTech at That time Rose at the three-quarter part Of the cycle and then dropped down and Then came back to Center so those very First bows were creating Um one second here so The very first Of those bows were creating an S Bend And an arrow like this As it launched through so when that's Happening the stiffness of your arrow And how when people are tuning bows and Saying okay well a 300 at 70 pounds is Not working we need a 260. well when You're factoring in weird knock travels Like that 100 that's the case now okay Now we have we have Bose listen I think Our charts could soften up some because The efficiency of the draw cycle in the Cam and I like there's not very many Boat like the PSE Omen is a speed Beast Right so like that thing or like let's

Say some of the original uh monsters That Matthews had let's go back to like You know botex ones or you know even When Hoyt had a afterburner okay these Are these are things to wear 100 like if You're weak at all on that chart it's Problematic what I've found is on these PSA cams when I went to the PSE cams They allowed me a softer Arrow than when I was shooting some of my original Carbon you know either my carbon Matrix Or you know some of those other cams Like for example Everyone everyone like Hoyt was chasing Speed they came out with that rkt cam That rktcam it would a hundred percent Need that that stiffness right Um whereas like like right now this Matthews cam like you can get away with Some of those weaker sides so what I'm Doing and why I get away with it is my Tune my arrow pressure on my rest the Knock travel at the position that I'm in And remember you know please keep in Mind on that on that levitate that was My baby that cam system was my baby I Worked with with Kevin on that and what Kevin said was he's like dude For whatever reason because I wanted it Wider I kind of wanted it to where it Actually shot like a 34 inch bow even Though it wasn't because of where the Strings are coming off the cam once the Cams hit their full position so at 30

And a half actually at 30 and 30 and a Half that E2 cam feels delicious okay And because of that I can get away with Shooting What the chart would say is weak it's Actually perfect if I go to the 260 it It starts to open up so Let me um I'll just pull this up for you Quick I actually I'll have a video Coming soon this so this laptop right Here Um I went and dug this out of my safe Because when I was trying to find some Of my historical data which I have Just tons of it I had to go to this old Laptop Um so let me just I'll type in and hey You guys on a live Instagram right now We are going to take some questions so If you want to stick around we're gonna I'll make John answer questions faster But this one's too good we gotta take Our time on because it's like but I Would love to get some q a with y'all That would be great I went live with Dan So that you guys can ask some some good Questions it's probably gonna end up Being a 17 hour podcast let me make sure I plug my laptop in so we don't die on People here okay I'm gonna pull I'm just gonna pull up Some stuff so we can show people Dan Okay so cool This is based on a this is based on a

Method that I had never heard before and I I ended up naming the hill method okay This was something that I taught Um Olympic and national teams when I When I did that internationally and I Would literally take people out I would I actually traveled around with Um so I had at the time the x10 and Honestly the pro tours in that category The very honestly the very first pro Tours that I have in here I tested in 2003 okay so the hill method is based on How an arrow reacts to the spine match To the arrow so here's an example okay This is the same bow with two different Spine arrows and it might be a little Hard for you guys to see so two very Very different results and and what Spine instantly Um Kind of shows you downrange on paper is That when the spine doesn't match your Horizontal grouping starts to expand and So what I would do is I actually had X10s in every size with one inch off the Back two inch off the back three inch Off the back and then in those same cut Configuration there was 100 grain points 120s 130s and literally I could take People never even change their bow they Could shoot that entire freaking group Down there and instantly you would know What uh Arrow shaft is more important

For you here's a perfect example okay so Yeah let me uh let me open this up so This was and you know hey this testing Is two thousand Three Okay so they're right right there is a Let's see that would be a 380 spine this Is a 420 there's a 470. same bow Same bow So as it starts to get too stiff not Only does the horizontal line open but When you have marginal shots your Flyers Start to really fly Okay so what I do when I'm setting up my Bows Is I have over here right over here Like that's my personal batch So when I set up a bow I have arrows Built in 300s 260s 250 spines and all I Do is I'll take six arrows Exactly the same and I freaking lob them All down there dudes and you'll see Pretty damn fast where your starting Point is and to me this this Should be the arrow chart like if you Had an arrow chart where you could type In your specs and it just showed you What would happen that way then that's That's a huge huge difference so hey John show that laptop put that laptop Right in the center of your phone frame People couldn't see that group that was Such a yeah that was such a good visual Okay hold on one second here so I and

What what distance was this shot at yeah Look at that there's an example of That is the same bow And this is actually out of a shooting Machine too at 90 meters Um so there's the same bow showing three Different spines and three different Results without moving the bow okay Um So let me see and you can I'll uh so to Answer that guy's question Um that's pretty much uh Why I can do that so I mean this is This is a pretty dang Sorry everyone I know you're you're Listening but Um let me go in here so John why don't You sell at knock on uh like a little Test kit where you get like three arrows Three axis set up at 300 350 and maybe You already do but you guys sell like a Little test kit where they could tinker And and test for themselves and figure Out that sounds like that sounds like it Used to work there okay so let me let me Enlarge the wait I might be able to find I'm I'm pulling up an article right now Um whereas I think I probably have uh I Probably have all the original documents But I think this stuff is like honestly When you do podcasts like this is the Stuff that people Absolutely a hundred percent when you See this this is the stuff that really

Starts to make a difference but more Importantly it really starts to educate People on you know what's going on sorry I'm just I mean look here I'm trying to Figure out this laptop sold I'm trying To remember where I kept everything okay Here's photos All right I'm just gonna like I'm gonna thumb through this I don't Even know what's all in this this is This is this is just This is just an this is just a folder Called arrows this is all Arrow grouping Okay That is only testing so that right there Dude is a day where I only tested the Color of veins because the green paint In this particular brand I won't re I Won't say it but the material itself was Actually slightly heavier okay like Here's here's the stuff where people Worry about well that's like when I Practice in the winter I don't even know What these photos are I'm just going Through be careful There's the end of a hill day that's 90 Meters dude okay There's some of your very first shafts Um these okay here's another this was a Day of testing right here so here's Another day of Hill And this day of Hill right here Was actually based on two things it was Based on

Point weight and arrow and then also Stiffness of the knock and how the Stiffness of the knock Affected the hill as well okay Um I showed you guys that picture there There's the end of a day Um you know finishing my tune so this Bow I actually took to a world field Um this particular bow was a setup that I need I wanted more speed again res Ending results these are just Documentations of like you know vein Configurations Fletch configurations Um but as a hunter let me just try to Find yeah some people are asking is this Being recorded you know this let me show You a little like behind the scenes of My ghetto Studios Yeah we're rolling so if you guys got to Go back to work this will be now this Pod won't drop for a while probably a Month or so but yeah here here's a Here's another great one Dan so Here is a bow And and so here's how the hill here's a Way that you can easily do the hill Method okay and I'm gonna do a video on This anyway So how you can affect an arrow by Approximately three quarters to one Spine size is just under four pounds of Pull weight okay So what I did was I took a bow and an

Arrow that I have and then what I do is I reduce the poundage about three and a Half pounds and I will shoot a group Again without moving anything don't Change any variable but one okay so this Was an end result right okay this was After decreasing the poundage on this Particular Bow by three and a half Pounds so like in this case let's say I Thought this spine was perfect for 75 Pounds and then I shot the group which Was actually this okay and I'm like wait A minute When it starts to flatten out and you Know you don't have facial pressure or Grip pressure inconsistencies this is an Indication of spine and for me this down Range is way more critical than a bear Shaft tune or even a walk like walk back Tuning gets you close where you know Your arrow settings right and and here's The thing all of those things if you do Them right they usually get you here but This is a faster way it's literally like This is the arrow I think I want I Wonder if I had a stiffer Arrow what Will happen Take three and a half pounds off four Pounds off your limbs and off all sudden It's gonna be low because you just Dropped a weight but if also that goes Like this okay now what I need to do if I want to shoot 70 pounds is now I need The next size stiffer or I need to have

Less insert weight so for some of you Out there who are shooting extremely Heavy points hell 50 grains will Instantly show you these same results so There's a bow And there's a bow steambo same person Same Arrow this is Arrow's reaction to Bow okay they're like this picture down Here actually became it became pretty Well shared okay that that bottom Picture because that was literally me Taking four different kinds of arrows Properly Hill testing them knowing where My sight Mark was and then shooting a Group with four different shafts out of The same bow without moving anything Okay so yeah that that is tinkering That is some tinkering I love that and Uh so would you say is it safe to say Trust the spine charts but verify with Some laboratory work trust everything But verify dude gotcha yeah dude that's Great information y'all um all right John we're gonna take a a small guys We'll go for a few more minutes Um I'm gonna take a break from archery Just for a second because these guys Consume yeah we got questions yeah we Got we got to hit some of these Questions we gotta talk about a number Of veins on the back end uh because I Think you and I see things differently Also I just got to ask you based on on The spine part is there so technically

There is a such thing as going too stiff Like yeah for sure 100 right you drink Too much water you'll die yeah exactly Okay well said so let's talk about three Veins versus four veins I saw that on There I typically try to keep three I Feel like if three veins can't do the Job something's wrong with my choice and Or technique uh but you like four veins Do you want to talk about the Differences and when there's advantages Or differences Um on vein configuration now let's stay Away from vain configuration let's talk About number of veins yeah I mean we can Talk about all of it but I actually have A very good friend uh he's he's kind of A a behind the scenes engineer and he Actually can tune broadheads with two Veins like someone I've never seen dude So I believe it Um Listen the sonics we have are three Veins a lot of what I've ever killed is Three veins Um but here here's where the difference Comes in Where the difference comes in is there's A lot of people out there that don't Build only one setup and that's all they Go with there's people that have Multiple broadheads and a quiver even Though like that's a little bit scary For someone who doesn't do homework

Right right it's not as scary when you Have more steering okay so that's one of The reasons the other reason is if you Think about the helicopter that they use To kill Bin Laden right quietest Helicopter ever Did it have three three freaking Propellers No uh no Because it you don't want to if you're Chopping air and if there's like space Between veins that's sometimes what Makes this the vein have a more audible Sound there's diff there's actually two Different characteristics to it Um so and you know like I can pull up Another picture here while I'm talking But the four veins when I shoot for what I like is I like The front of one vein to align where the Airfoil of the rear vein would begin is That does that make sense so that it's Literally turning air like a ceiling fan That you have that has four or five uh You know blades on it it's quiet you Know you look at a hunter fan or Whatever A lot of times the quietest Ones have that and so when it just comes In audible sound I like the four Fletch For that purpose and also we are sending Arrows to people where we have no idea Who's tuning their setup we have no idea What Broadhead they want to shoot and The bottom line is it lets more people

Get away with more assortments so you Know it listen three Every single metal I've ever won was With three dude like but I never I never Worried about sound you know and and I Was also I also shot veins that were a Serious pain in the ass to get to stick On I mean you know like I had a timer Every vein took 23 minutes to fully cure Before I could move it because I had to You know you can't go somewhere you Can't travel 20 hours in a plane to Shoot for a medal and you only have 12 Arrows to freaking Make It or Break It And one vein ejects so there's certain Materials that are quieter there are Certain shapes that are quieter Um but certainly you know on my on Almost every arrow I want to meddle with Was no more than one and a half degrees 1.5 degrees because the faster it's Turning the faster it'll decelerate too Yeah and I've seen that I've actually Done some testing um for a Antelope Arrow and I have a video coming out on That but I totally went away from a Crazy helical for this particular Arrow To go to like literally one and a half Degrees uh and actually I went to the Right which my arrow clocks to the left Or whatever I don't pay attention to That too much uh and my group's tighten Up my group's tighten up quite a bit for That particular Arrow um let's talk

About spine alignment finding the Stiffest spot on an arrow Um I'm really big into skipping the Foreplay if you know what I mean when it Comes to arrows and if so if I don't Need to knock tune if I don't have to Bear shaft through paper then bear shaft Tune out like I try to get to the end Which is a lot of time for me a big Chunky fix Broadhead and I just shoot it With a fill point and double check tune That way but a lot of guys get really Hung up on spine alignment fighting the Stiff do they have their vein Aligned with the weakest spot of the Arrow the stiffest take it wherever you Want John but I would love to hear your Insight yeah yeah so actually just as I'm sitting here Um Going through these pictures again I Have this laptop was from a 10-year Stretch from like 2000 To 2 to 2012. I have another laptop and IBM Um that doesn't really want to power on Which was during all of my time with Matt Um but as I'm just looking through here Okay this actually just came up so this Was actually a test that I was doing on There's the circumference uh the Circumference consistency This that particular Arrow looks like it

Was on one of the very first hex which Has now evolved into a Sonic which is a Thicker walled hex okay but There's some testing I've done Um like here's an example of like data That I'd send into this was on one of The very first infused carbon axis that I would send into Easton so this was Like me testing the straightness you Know I TR I kind of built this machine To where I could test the straightness At like 10 different points on the Arrow shaft So here's the thing if you have an arrow Shaft that you don't pay a lot for and It has a three thousands plus or minus Straightness Knock tuning is going to be an issue That you might want to pay attention to Probably the the thing the Time Saver Would be to Mark every arrow and any Arrow that's not shooting within that Group turn the knock 90 degrees shoot it Again see if you can bring the knock Back in that'll prevent you having to Float everything because the bottom line Is plus or minus three thousands is Actually Um that's the high and the low end and There's not going to be there there Might be like three of those in your Batch you know there's probably gonna be Like if if you don't if you buy cheap Arrows there might be like

Three of those then there might be four Or five of the of ones that are two Thousandths and then you're gonna have Some that are great So a match grade arrow is literally Easton Is doing that for you They are literally taking an entire Batch of arrows and see our arrows are Our knock on axis It's mandatory for me that when they Build these they start with brand new Spools of carbon for the entire run Because I want the same epoxy and I want The same exact carbon from that roll I Don't want any roll changes so like our Match grade axis is a three mile arrow That is cut every 33 inches From the same exact spool then they will Go through this test so that they're Going to weed these things out for you So it's like for an extra 30 or 40 Dollars for someone ask yourself the Question Is me floating these arrows and having To Fletch them all worth the time and Effort when Easton or gold tip or or Um Uh freaking what's the eagle Arrow damn It McCarthy's in is there Um So like a lot of these arrows right Um yeah VAP same example you get it you Get a plus or minus one thousandths VAP

The way some of these the way some of These are processed listen on an on an Aluminum Arrow let me see if I can grab One and when you say float John like You're talking bathtub floating to five Them like to Mark the stiffness correct Yeah I've definitely seen people tell People to do that listen you can float It and yeah the heavy side but here's The thing some of the older like some of The older arrows Um Think about it like this Here's branding for you dude that's a That's that's folders for kids in school So some of the some of the older carbons Right were rolled like Carbon sheets and They were rolled like this So where that seam is That would then get sanded down but Technically there is a High Ridge right There the way these arrows are actually Weaved now that is way less way less Important and then when if you go with a Match grade the consistency of spine Consistent like when you hear match Grade it's not just weight This is straightness spine consistency And weight tolerance so it's like you Are spending an hour floating arrows and Then Fletching all these things and Paying attention to it when that's an Hour you could win practice so if you if You look on it on and I don't know if

They'll be able to see it it might be Really hard hold on let me see if I can Get the angle just right but on a black Aluminum Arrow I'll put my fingers on it If you look there's actually you can see That right in the dead center it's not The glare spot but there's actually A silver seam which is where that Aluminum arrow is welded together So In this case where I can clearly see a Seam Sure there's my vein okay it's an Arrow that shot for like team trial Right here so You guys out there if you're gonna save Money on arrows then you need to spend Time If you're gonna spend money you save Time that's my advice I love that man And you could put your time into Practicing and honing your game and kind Of back to invest it dang that's cool Yeah honestly Um I love this conversation guys I don't Want to stay live forever so I have to Be completely yeah you got a good amount In there but yeah you're probably stay Safe you want to save you want to save The Nugget ask a few questions from the Live people because they joined in so Yeah give me a few pick a few pick a few Questions from people out there All right so I'm gonna find the first

Good one hunting stories would like you To come on this podcast I know him and I'll vouch for him he's a good dude uh See cheers for Montana our stock Knocks on fmj's good Um or should he go for like an Aftermarket knock that's from Captain And Skipper listen guys I'm gonna tell You right now I've uh um Nick Fisher AAE Is is one of the Most freaking knowledgeable people on This subject of any human I know and Next in line for that would be Werner Biter from Germany and now Werner is Taken over by Andreas okay Um These people have the Precision that is Insane but let me just um I'm gonna tell You I'm going to show you what I like Now on an axis and an FMJ the short Answer for you is that is one of my Favorite stock knocks period my favorite Stock knocks are an X Um a 3D super if you're shooting an Aluminum which the 3D super Has this configuration right here which Has a soft tail Has an indention for your knock to fit And it has a way more robust midsection Right here what you don't want is a Knock that has Flex okay and so this This actually comes into uh Can you give me a second you take over Look for another question let me just be

Right back because I want to show people This is important that's cool yeah okay It says need mfjj on here I agree where Are you mfjj this was not planned I Didn't plan on going live with John I'm Gonna blame him Um Justin wolski I want to say what's up Um He wanted to know the four vain Max Stealth with the wrap is that enough to Change spine Dynamics I like that Question okay we'll come back to that Justin People ask me about four millimeters all The time listen I love I love the flight Characteristics of a four millimeter Arrow shaft Here's what I don't like what I don't Like is I actually feel that lighted Knocks should almost be a mandatory Thing for hunters because the recovery Rate is so much there's two things that Are critical to a lighted knock Impact Assurance because when things Happen fast especially in Elk dark Timber Dan where you're at if I mean how Hard would it be in that dark Timber to Know where you hit especially sometimes When you don't have another guy or you Don't have a camera You're like Manny World fast I don't Know what happened the back of my arrows Laying right there no don't know what The freak

A lighted knock in your mind it'll take A snapshot of damn that looked a little Bit far back which is actually what Happened on my moose that I shot when he Stood up I couldn't see his leg I could See his hump I knew the hump was a Danger zone straight down from the hump So I went back where I had a nice hole Okay this is this is a Cyrus I shot last Year When it hit I thought oh that's a little Bit back but it's for sure liver it's a Dead bull you know especially with a two Inch you know I shot a two inch freaking Expandable and and it you know buried That far like that's a dead bull But I also didn't pursue very fast I Took High Ground I got confirmation of Where he was laying down and honestly he Was like hurting I went up there within Like a couple minutes I ran up the hill I spotted right where he was the lighted Knock was sitting there like that I Literally low light I I'm like boom There's my bowl there's my bowl and then I could pick my navigation route I went In there and honestly he he I freaking Gave him another one but when I field Dressed him Neither of the arrows were behind the Diaphragm that was a that was a dead Bull But seeing that Arrow helped me know Where he was I didn't walk up there and

Spook him Um and I was able to have a clear visual So like for me part of the ethical part Of ethical hunting is is proper recovery And I think aiding in recovery is Critical so I think the shot Confirmation is critical and here's the Other thing I think is important this is Really important for new bow hunters and New archers So uh I spent a lot I spent years trying To get permission on this Farm in Wisconsin I worked up there I hunted Public land I knocked on doors you know I was like hunting just some of the Crappiest stuff because I was just Getting permission well after multiple Years and also helping during dairies During Dairy harvesting time you know I'd go there and milk cows for this guy He started letting me hunt Okay well I Go out hunting one day uh starts to get A little bit dark I don't see any deer Around But Here Comes This coyote Coyote comes in and I'm like I'm gonna Freaking smoke this thing so I freaking Shoot and I shoot this coyote runs off And dies by the time I go and find the Coyote Um it was too dark to look for my arrows In an alfalfa field so the next morning As soon as I had my lunch break At Matthews I drove out there and I went To look for my arrow and as soon as I

Pull up that freaking Alfalfa is cut for Like 70 yards from the field Edge out And As soon as I parked my car and I'm just Like oh man I hope I can find it I start Walking and here comes the farmer on his Quad just and he literally has the back End of my arrow and he says Was there a blade on the front of this He said because this is out of my cow Trough I just cut fresh Alfalfa he just Cut silage and fed it And I'm just like uh and luckily I went Out and the arrow was in the ground and He had cut it off So I was able to say no sir And so this was actually an article of Mine about not only how to get Permission but how to keep permission Finding your arrows when you have Permission to hunt is such an important Part of being an ethical bowhunter and And as a new Hunter Just because you know make a valiant Effort to find your arrow because you Don't know what type of Machinery or Livestock could interfere with that Arrow and you can end bow hunting for Anyone who gets permission on that Property that fast okay so that's what That's the other reason why a lighted Knock is so important here's what I Don't like four millimeter Arrow Lighted knock

So You see that That's why I will not shoot a 44 Millimeter Arrow because regardless of The knock brand If you want to shoot a 80 pound bow or a 75 pound bow this is an accuracy Destroyer okay that's why I don't shoot Four millimeters it's not because I Don't like listen the benefits of that Ballistically Are awesome But again if I can't be accurate with it Why am I going to throw something down There so here's the truth man like I Love lighted knocks like for hunting but I don't I don't trust them like I don't Trust the consistency like that's where The energy goes to the arrow first so Yeah what what do you recommend and I'm Sure you have a recommendation but People ask me all the time and I just Say I kind of steer clear of them but if You want to convince me otherwise what What have you found to be the most Consistent reliable well the ones that I'm shooting right now and listen There's there's a couple good ones I I Kind of honestly I base the ones I Choose on serving fit okay absolutely There there's a knock over here that That I just ordered because I was Intrigued by it I got it in and I Actually reached out to the to this

Manufacturer and I said this is an Awesome air this is an awesome knock you Didn't spend enough time matching the Molds so that someone can put this knock In and and literally only have to Re-zero the height difference due to the Weight serving fit is like so critical To where I told them I'm like I don't Want I either need a I either need 50 Knocks to get through the whole hunting Season and shoot these on my practice Arrows at camp and every single thing 100 or I can't cheat them so Um I'll show you two different ones here And and so this is a sad part about this Too Um the sad part is Like for Nocturnals these two are Actually Nocturnals Um the color The clarity of that plastic reflects the Batch My experience the cloudier it is and Listen there's some there's some fakes Out there Yes see how this is cloudy The cloudier it is whatever reason that Batch of plastic is more pliable than Than this one is stiffer and so this is This is an X size so like look this is Good to go dude this is a unino knock Okay this one also good to go I mean I'm Pushing I'm pushing pretty hard but Certain ones that's really what you want

To look for and the thing is the higher Your poundage or the lower your draw all Or the longer your draw length or the More aggressive your cam The more that stuff will start to Magnify so what I would just tell people Is this listen if you see a lighted Knock that you like The best thing you can do is see how Your bow shoots with field points with The stock knock Put on a new knock or put on your Lighted Knocks and see if your groups Are the same they're going to move you Know the basic rule anytime you change Anything you've changed everything so if You put a new knock on a serving that Has a slightly different fit it's going To change what happens so the bottom Line is how does that new product that You have group If the group is the same move it If it opens up you've gone backwards in Accuracy at that point you want to go Forward okay that makes that's cool and I my buddy Josh he showed me two weeks Ago some four mil Lighted knocks that he had found and I Suck I can't remember the name I wish I Could have found out what they were but He was like man these actually might Work because you're right four Mills Have been tough and I've really loved Running

Um the pro comps quite honestly like That's my favorite little bougie Arrow What other good four mil options do you Recommend like let me ask you this if You had to choose Pro Comp versus the Easton long range do you have a winner Each has their own individual Application or another brand Um I don't know like some of this stuff Like listen Pro comps and awesome Arrow I freaking go through arrows dude I mean I go through a ton of arrows and what I Tell people is you know you can get you Can get a really quality Axis or Honestly like those Sonics that we have Are a match grade Sonic with a preset Three Fletch I showed people how they Group they group the same as my Axis They're just not not as heavy and they Don't have as guaranteed of a of a Straightness But I honestly feel like if you're if You don't have that much money to put Into arrows like that some of these People would be better off instead of Getting a mid-level bow and then going Like crazy high-end arrows listen match Grade arrows complete pre-fletch do not Overlook these these options I mean we Preflex with vinyls and four Fletch like That's what we offer and it's it's Literally the three arrows I shoot Whether I'm at tack whether I'm shooting My indoor I shoot those 365 a days a

Year I shoot those three arrows but the Things that I don't like about like a Four millimeter is I don't like Prolapsing my bag targets so any type of Outsert and bag targets are kind of a You know a No-No and yeah it's a no-go And the thing is I don't know what kind Of Target is going to be at the hunting Camp I go to I don't know what kind of Target uh they're gonna have you know I Don't know what kind of Target they're Gonna have at an archery event I'm going To go to so you know I just try to go With something that's that's a Smooth Bore and pulls out easy now listen with With the the pro comps and the x10s in a Competition life You had to have ballistic C uh like Superiority so let me I've never showed This let me pull this up quick This was something that I only did in Presentations to uh Olympic National Teams or or at like a coaching Summit Um but let's see here the under seminars Maybe Seminars Um let's see Two Let me see if I can pull this up Um and you can take another question too I've got I'm gonna have to pull this up But I think you guys are definitely Going to want to watch it I think you're Definitely yeah here's what I'll tell

You guys uh we will do this is where We're gonna finish and then I want to Ask John on live an overview of his hunt Schedule his fall schedule so we can Kind of get a teaser as to what he's Setting out to do and then to be honest With you this pod is not going to drop Till I get home from elk hunting which Is open-ended so it'll be Dude I come on man make the people wait Good no No send me the file dude I'll post it All right I'll post it oh my gosh dude I'm on like PowerPoint freaking it's Like we have to open this PowerPoint or You will not see it where's your first Hunt while you're looking John uh my First be in Alberta yeah always Alberta Yeah I did uh do you go with the same Group of guys every year is it different Do you go after last year you slayed a Bunch of animals in Alberta some years You're hunting elk and Albert and the River bottoms some years you're hunting Mule deer what are you gonna do this Year so when I go to Alberta I buy five Tags Um I've got a pretty good I've got a Pretty good relationship with a Outfitter up there that they're like Family to me I go with red Willow Outfitters and uh I've got a pretty good Deal with Todd I've hunted up there so Long and like I said they're like family

To me I've been up there 20 years so I Actually buy five tags and then two of My closest friends that actually were Like some people I credit with what I've Learned in the back country for sure Dusty's dad but he's like my both of These guys are like my brothers they're From BC so they can actually get a Guide's license in Alberta so it's Pretty sweet they get a guide license I've got a real shitty uh camper that I Keep up there they bring over three Float boats and you know we normally do You know last year if you saw my hands I Think we did like 100 miles on the river And about 150 on foot and we just hunt We I have permission on some open field So if we see Amelia out in a field and I Know who it is I'll go knock on the door And see if I can do a stock some people We just got permission to walk through The fields to get to the crownland where It Dives down into like the Peace River And stuff and dude we just we just go Still hunt I'm normally calling for Elk First and foremost but we're glassing a Lot and if we see a whitetail bear moose Mule deer elk uh then I I go for it so This here's this is a a very old Presentation one that I would have done For you know a national team or dang it Or an Olympic team uh let's see sorry I Thought I oh I had that I was trying to See okay here here I can do it this way

Um I hope so this was all like this was All presentations on on arrows based on Seminars that I actually used to do for Easton you know for Easton at some of The training center so right so like Okay here let's see So here's several shafts you probably Some of them you may recognize uh Pro Tour that right there was like one of The early Concepts to your Pro Comp uh The pro field is actually the is the Pro Comp that's that's been changed Um so So part of this data like some of this Data let's see this would be So this is every arrow that I just Showed you with different point weights And this shows you the ballistic drop And how these arrows retain energy at The longer distances so The smaller your margin from full Acceleration to deceleration the Tighter And more consistent your group will be Downrange so this is based off not only Diameter but also speed okay Um let's see if we can go further here So Um so like these are like graphs made on Like downrange ballistic coefficients of An X10 versus a pro tour which at the Time was really important because one of The really hard things to tune in X10 Was the fact that it was barreled on Both sides okay so it was small tapered

In the middle barreled down but they Were designed the ace and the x10 were Originally designed for our Olympic Recurve Shooters and it's why the x10 is Why we dominated the Atlanta Olympics uh Was because we were the only team with Them Um but the problem is with the compound Bow and especially during the early 2000s because of those weird knock Travels and that's part of why like Hoyt Started to play with it was they knew They had to drive that knock the knock Point down as it cycled through because The shaft got skinnier too right so There was this really difficult tuning Era where some people did not know how To tune an X10 because it was it was a Barreled shaft okay so the pro tour came Out because the pro tour is tapered in The front And then it is fully parallel at the Entire back side of the shaft so one of The things that was critical was because We've paralleled the back to take the Stiffness of the thrust of the compound Bow will this Arrow still have the Ballistic coefficients downrange which The answer was yes by the way dude You're doing a good job like retaining That many people watching for this long That's very very uncommon So yeah Here's tables and these are things that

I that I had the you know James Park did An amazing research project testing Let's see it was 5 10 and 15 meters a second Crosswinds And out of a shooting machine testing The the horizontal Wind Drift of all Five of the major arrows that were Available and how those drifted at every Single distance with 5 10 and 15 mile an Hour winds so that's why it's like Listen I haven't opened this laptop in 10 years and so when when People try to tell me something that I've forgotten about That's why I took it you know that's why I've like taken it kind of personally Because you know a lot of this had to do With like some of the you know some of The very first shooting machine testing Um just I don't know all the different Things like you know I would talk to him About Knox like what Knox did right Um so just just to go through you know Knock to string tension this is very Important with lighter weight bows or Weak string tension women kids anyone Who backs their lint their limbs out This is even more critical because it Will pull your string into that string Stop and cause that knock to drive down So if if the arrow can pull the string More than 1.5 centimeters without Releasing it it's too tight okay Um so then I go into a presentation

About custom strings then importance of Of replacing knocks we replace knocks The day before every single official Practice day we oh really yeah oh yeah Yeah like you can wear out a knock so if You haven't replaced Knox and honestly The smaller and the more flexible your Knock you know it might have a little Bit it might have a little bit more Um forgivability but it'll also wear Faster so that's like some of the things That like Nick at AAE is so awesome Because when he makes a product he's Like diving deep into this stuff but Yeah this is like I mean this is so when Nick from AE came Over to my house he hung out for like Three days straight and we just like I'm Like dude we're making content for three Days straight that dude's a wizard and I Had never really around with Torque tuning like I I've heard Target Archers talk about it but I'm like what Is this we did it and uh wow So do you do torque tuning on your Hunting setups I mean I've done a ton of It but I've also there comes a point Where I know I can do it but I also know The average to where right once again so Like here was actually testing this was Like some testing and what we showed Based off the results of poor drag or Poor clearance so if poor clearance in Your arrow is doing what I said a lot of

People's attacks were doing where They're having the point is leading the Way like a freaking shot put going Through the air but the back of the Arrows like this ribbon just kind of Like taking it what happens is you're Groups you know they start to do this And they get worse at the longer Distances there's normally a barrier Right here and once you cross that Barrier even though people say well I'm Only a white tail Hunter you're right You're totally right if you're a Whitetail Hunter you know 30 yards or Less dude get after it stop sweating it Stop sweating the details if you're a Western Hunter if you think you're going To go out for Antelope more importantly If you've ever actually hit an animal And it doesn't pile up on the first you Know right then then guess what you need To be able to make a follow-up shot and A lot of my recovery regardless of how Good of an Archer I am is based on the Ability to like not take a chance and Drop a follow-up shot in there like That's part of your responsibility not Just because I want to do it so like That that kind of showed that stuff so Here's here's what I came up with And in Regards to torque tuning I've done it a Ton of different ways if you go back and Look if you can find any pictures of me Or video of me competing

Um you know when I competed I never had my sight all the way in Front of my bow because I did I did Torque tune so I've kind of found a Relationship where because the arrow Rest isn't as far back on a hunting bow As like a Target Archer I would have a Full trophy taker or a full lizard Tongue two inches behind because again I'm I'm chasing ballistics that I want That I have to have because of those Tables I just showed you I have to have Those ballistics but when I chase that Shaft the reason the x10 is so Beneficial is because it is the smallest Diameter made in the heaviest mass Weight so it is just a wind cutting Freaking son of a but it's a To tune and the shorter you can make That thing The more speed you will get out of it And the less Arrow shaft you're trying To tame the freak down so I would shoot A rest that was further back to try to Minimize how much of that Arrow shaft I Was trying to manipulate so in a hunting Situation what I've done is I keep my Rest like all my rest like my offsets or Honestly like the little PSE block that Fits into the qad that pops into the Riser that puts that in a position to Where if you match that To the exact length of the spot hog and E that I offer I have torque tuned for

You okay yeah that's exactly what I've Found is those that ratio that distance Because man I well think of it like this So okay so if I if I'm holding this Arrow here and and let's let's say I Torque the bow in my my front sights Over here okay Well I don't know that I've torqued the Bow so what I'm going to do is I'm going To aim to where my points on So the the purpose of toy of torque Tuning is if you torque the bow what you Want is you actually want this arrow Rest that's supporting the arrow Offsetting your false Aim so you're Literally by making those distance from The Pivot Point closer to the same You're minimizing your your deficiency So that's why when I see these guys with The new phase four and the freaking you Know the block that's mounting right on The dovetail and then they want to have This cool sight out in front you're Killing yourself Is magnified literally I can vouch I can Vouch for that because I've we tested it Man and I the compression really and When you think about torquing I don't Torque my bow if you're a hunter out West and you're crawling through the Sage being a ninja and you're gonna take A shot in the silo or up on a steep Angle you're probably going to torque Your bow In the Heat of the Moment you

Need that forgiveness so I am sold on it Man I'm glad that and you explained that Very well with your visual aid so if you All don't know about torque tuning I'm Going to volunteer Dudley to do a whole Video series on it coming dude I want to Go hunting I think I've gone on enough Freaking rants but yeah I mean all I Want is to Make archers better by learning from all Of my horrible mistakes that no one ever Could freaking explain to me that that's That's the truth so listen You know that inline design Is awesome okay like Matthews did a Great job on that I'm pissed PSE did not Listen to me when I wanted to put the Pick rail on the NTN they're like No One's Gonna Buy in on that But it's it's a good design But here's why it happened Why it happened is because Matthews had To thicken their risers and when they Thicken their risers now most sites out Of a box would would not go far enough Left Because the the because the Riser was so Much thicker standard blocks are now Sitting over here okay And they couldn't get their sights so Naturally Matt's like well I love this Freaking design let's make it easy let's Get and the arrow rest was the first Problem that was the biggest problem

Like forget about sites sites actually You can have one more movement the first Problem was the rest And that design came out on the rest Guaranteed for their ability to bring Things back to Center Matt loves the Details he loves clean clean clean Which is one of the things like when I Do a model for PSE that's why there's Like little details little bitty details Um He wanted it clean so he did that well Then once that happened then the next Thing was sites but he also I'm sure They needed a year to convince the site Companies get some people to sign some Ndas and and actually have product ready Ahead of time so that they could meet Matthews for that system and then once That system came well now every Boat Company is like oh damn we can beef up Our risers in the center point Which is you know which was kind of a Weak point on some of these risers where They're trying to really thin them down And everybody's battling the weight gain You know so there there's just so many Things in the industry that's like cause And effect and although that's awesome To have them in line bring it in dudes Bring it in bring it in your PIN Gap Your PIN gaps get much tighter too when You bring it in Guys uh we did not plan on going live we

Went live forever we're gonna tune out I Got another podcast to do right after This and it's intent I gotta say goodbye To John this podcast won't drop for a Little while uh John Dudley thank you Are you gonna post this part to get People are you oh yeah you're gonna Ditch it yeah you're gonna save it You're gonna post it I guess tell me About going live it's been a minute do I Just hit save and post Dan I'll tell you What you should post this one you should Also put this one out if you send me the Files I'll give you a finished file in About 30 minutes and you can post it Today you got AI that edits for you or You just got the squad dude just because I'm quiet sometimes doesn't mean I don't Have my together like we've got an Awesome team you freaking we transfer me That mp4 file on both of our audio files I'll I'll get you a finished result uh I'm gonna do it to you in about 45 Minutes all right guys I I will we Transfer this to dud because I'm going Right onto another pod but I'm going to Sign off live and on this pod and I'm Going to tell John right now thank you For your continuous support John called Me a couple weeks ago out of the blue And I'm not going to tell you the Details of the conversation but you know What it was about John and I just Appreciate you always having my back so

I can just be like hey dude this is my Opinion take it or leave it but yeah the Reason I wanted to do it is because I'm Passionate about this I want people Ready for hunting season dude let's get People ready for hunting season let's Let people forget about all this And just take their bows and go outside For the next two weeks and shoot Freaking groups check your broadheads Get your sights dialed and just Notch Tags in love archery that's what I want I'm notching tags John's Notch and tags And so are y'all all right we'll get This out today or tomorrow or ASAP I Appreciate you guys separations in the Preparation we'll catch on the next one

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